Talk:Donald Trump

Current consensus

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01. Use the official White House portrait as the infobox image. (Dec 2016, Jan 2017, Oct 2017, March 2020) (temporarily suspended by #19 following copyright issues on the inauguration portrait, enforced when an official public-domain portrait was released on 31 October 2017)

02. Show birthplace as "Queens, New York City, U.S." in the infobox. (Nov 2016, Oct 2018, Feb 2021) "New York City" de-linked. (September 2020)

03. Omit reference to county-level election statistics. (Dec 2016)

04. Superseded by #15

Lead phrasing of Trump "gaining a majority of the U.S. Electoral College" and "receiving a smaller share of the popular vote nationwide", without quoting numbers. (Nov 2016, Dec 2016) (Superseded by #15 since 11 February 2017)

05. Use Trump's annual net worth evaluation and matching ranking, from the Forbes list of billionaires, not from monthly or "live" estimates. (Oct 2016) In the lead section, just write: Forbes estimates his net worth to be [$x.x] billion. (July 2018, July 2018) Removed from the lead per #47.

06. Do not include allegations of sexual misconduct in the lead section. (June 2016, Feb 2018)

07. Superseded by #35

Include "Many of his public statements were controversial or false." in the lead. (Sep 2016, February 2017, wording shortened per April 2017, upheld with July 2018) (superseded by #35 since 18 February 2019)

08. Superseded by unlisted consensus

Mention that Trump is the first president elected "without prior military or government service". (Dec 2016, superseded Nov 2024)

09. Include a link to Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2017) Include a link to an archive of Trump's Twitter account in the "External links" section. (Jan 2021)

10. Canceled

Keep Barron Trump's name in the list of children and wikilink it, which redirects to his section in Family of Donald Trump per AfD consensus. (Jan 2017, Nov 2016) Canceled: Barron's BLP has existed since June 2019. (June 2024)

11. Superseded by #17

The lead sentence is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American businessman, television personality, politician, and the 45th President of the United States." (Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017) (superseded by #17 since 2 April 2017)

12. The article title is Donald Trump, not Donald J. Trump. (RM Jan 2017, RM June 2019)

13. Auto-archival is set for discussions with no comments for 14 days. Manual archival is allowed for (1) closed discussions, 24 hours after the closure, provided the closure has not been challenged, and (2) "answered" edit requests, 24 hours after the "answer", provided there has been no follow-on discussion after the "answer". (Jan 2017) (amended with respect to manual archiving, to better reflect common practice at this article) (Nov 2019)

14. Omit mention of Trump's alleged bathmophobia/fear of slopes. (Feb 2017)

15. Superseded by lead rewrite

Supersedes #4. There is no consensus to change the formulation of the paragraph which summarizes election results in the lead (starting with "Trump won the general election on November 8, 2016, …"). Accordingly the pre-RfC text (Diff 8 Jan 2017) has been restored, with minor adjustments to past tense (Diff 11 Feb 2018). No new changes should be applied without debate. (RfC Feb 2017, Jan 2017, Feb 2017, Feb 2017) In particular, there is no consensus to include any wording akin to "losing the popular vote". (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by local consensus on 26 May 2017 and lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

16. Superseded by lead rewrite

Do not mention Russian influence on the presidential election in the lead section. (RfC March 2017) (Superseded by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017)

17. Superseded by #50

Supersedes #11. The lead paragraph is "Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is the 45th and current president of the United States. Before entering politics, he was a businessman and television personality." The hatnote is simply {{Other uses}}. (April 2017, RfC April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, April 2017, July 2017, Dec 2018) Amended by lead section rewrite on 23 June 2017 and removal of inauguration date on 4 July 2018. Lower-case "p" in "president" per Dec 2018 and MOS:JOBTITLES RfC Oct 2017. Wikilinks modified per April 2020. Wikilink modified again per July 2020. "45th" de-linked. (Jan 2021)

18. Superseded by #63

The "Alma mater" infobox entry shows "Wharton School (BS Econ.)", does not mention Fordham University. (April 2017, April 2017, Aug 2020, Dec 2020)

19. Obsolete

Following deletion of Trump's official White House portrait for copyright reasons on 2 June 2017, infobox image was replaced by File:Donald Trump Pentagon 2017.jpg. (June 2017 for replacement, June 2017, declined REFUND on 11 June 2017) (replaced by White House official public-domain portrait according to #1 since 31 Oct 2017)

20. Mention protests in the lead section with this exact wording: His election and policies have sparked numerous protests. (June 2017, May 2018) (Note: In February 2021, when he was no longer president, the verb tense was changed from "have sparked" to "sparked", without objection.)

21. Superseded by #39

Omit any opinions about Trump's psychology held by mental health academics or professionals who have not examined him. (July 2017, Aug 2017) (superseded by #36 on 18 June 2019, then by #39 since 20 Aug 2019)

22. Do not call Trump a "liar" in Wikipedia's voice. Falsehoods he uttered can be mentioned, while being mindful of calling them "lies", which implies malicious intent. (RfC Aug 2017, upheld by RfC July 2024)

23. Superseded by #52

The lead includes the following sentence: Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, citing security concerns; after legal challenges, the Supreme Court upheld the policy's third revision. (Aug 2017, Nov 2017, Dec 2017, Jan 2018, Jan 2018) Wording updated (July 2018) and again (Sep 2018).

24. Superseded by #30

Do not include allegations of racism in the lead. (Feb 2018) (superseded by #30 since 16 Aug 2018)

25. In citations, do not code the archive-related parameters for sources that are not dead. (Dec 2017, March 2018)

26. Do not include opinions by Michael Hayden and Michael Morell that Trump is a "useful fool […] manipulated by Moscow" or an "unwitting agent of the Russian Federation". (RfC April 2018)

27. State that Trump falsely claimed that Hillary Clinton started the Barack Obama birther rumors. (April 2018, June 2018)

28. Include, in the Wealth section, a sentence on Jonathan Greenberg's allegation that Trump deceived him in order to get on the Forbes 400 list. (June 2018, June 2018)

29. Include material about the Trump administration family separation policy in the article. (June 2018)

30. Supersedes #24. The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist." (RfC Sep 2018, Oct 2018, RfC May 2019)

31. Do not mention Trump's office space donation to Jesse Jackson's Rainbow/Push Coalition in 1999. (Nov 2018)

32. Omit from the lead the fact that Trump is the first sitting U.S. president to meet with a North Korean supreme leader. (RfC July 2018, Nov 2018)

33. Do not mention "birtherism" in the lead section. (RfC Nov 2018)

34. Refer to Ivana Zelníčková as a Czech model, with a link to Czechs (people), not Czechoslovakia (country). (Jan 2019)

35. Superseded by #49

Supersedes #7. Include in the lead: Trump has made many false or misleading statements during his campaign and presidency. The statements have been documented by fact-checkers, and the media have widely described the phenomenon as unprecedented in American politics. (RfC Feb 2019)

36. Superseded by #39

Include one paragraph merged from Health of Donald Trump describing views about Trump's psychology expressed by public figures, media sources, and mental health professionals who have not examined him. (June 2019) (paragraph removed per RfC Aug 2019 yielding consensus #39)

37. Resolved: Content related to Trump's presidency should be limited to summary-level about things that are likely to have a lasting impact on his life and/or long-term presidential legacy. If something is borderline or debatable, the resolution does not apply. (June 2019)

38. Do not state in the lead that Trump is the wealthiest U.S. president ever. (RfC June 2019)

39. Supersedes #21 and #36. Do not include any paragraph regarding Trump's mental health or mental fitness for office. Do not bring up for discussion again until an announced formal diagnosis or WP:MEDRS-level sources are provided. This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. (RfC Aug 2019, July 2021)

40. Include, when discussing Trump's exercise or the lack thereof: He has called golfing his "primary form of exercise", although he usually does not walk the course. He considers exercise a waste of energy, because he believes the body is "like a battery, with a finite amount of energy" which is depleted by exercise. (RfC Aug 2019)

41. Omit book authorship (or lack thereof) from the lead section. (RfC Nov 2019)

42. House and Senate outcomes of the impeachment process are separated by a full stop. For example: He was impeached by the House on December 18, 2019, for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. He was acquitted of both charges by the Senate on February 5, 2020. (Feb 2020)

43. The rules for edits to the lead are no different from those for edits below the lead. For edits that do not conflict with existing consensus: Prior consensus is NOT required. BOLD edits are allowed, subject to normal BRD process. The mere fact that an edit has not been discussed is not a valid reason to revert it. (March 2020)

44. The lead section should mention North Korea, focusing on Trump's meetings with Kim and some degree of clarification that they haven't produced clear results. (RfC May 2020)

45. Superseded by #48

There is no consensus to mention the COVID-19 pandemic in the lead section. (RfC May 2020, July 2020)

46. Use the caption "Official portrait, 2017" for the infobox image. (Aug 2020, Jan 2021)

47. Do not mention Trump's net worth or Forbes ranking (or equivalents from other publications) in the lead, nor in the infobox. (Sep 2020)

48. Supersedes #45. Trump's reaction to the COVID-19 pandemic should be mentioned in the lead section. There is no consensus on specific wording, but the status quo is Trump reacted slowly to the COVID-19 pandemic; he minimized the threat, ignored or contradicted many recommendations from health officials, and promoted false information about unproven treatments and the availability of testing. (Oct 2020, RfC Aug 2020)

49. Supersedes #35. Include in lead: Trump has made many false and misleading statements during his campaigns and presidency, to a degree unprecedented in American politics. (Dec 2020)

50. Supersedes #17. The lead sentence is: Donald John Trump (born June 14, 1946) is an American politician, media personality, and businessman who served as the 45th president of the United States from 2017 to 2021. (March 2021), amended (July 2021), inclusion of politician (RfC September 2021)

51. Include in the lead that many of Trump's comments and actions have been characterized as misogynistic. (Aug 2021 and Sep 2021)

52. Supersedes #23. The lead should contain a summary of Trump's actions on immigration, including the Muslim travel ban (cf. item 23), the wall, and the family separation policy. (September 2021)

53. The lead should mention that Trump promotes conspiracy theories. (RfC October 2021)

54. Include in the lead that, quote, Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history. (RfC October 2021) Amended after re-election: After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history. (November 2024)

55. Regarding Trump's comments on the 2017 far-right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, do not wiki-link "Trump's comments" in this manner. (RfC December 2021)

56. Retain the content that Trump never confronted Putin over its alleged bounties against American soldiers in Afghanistan but add context. Current wording can be altered or contextualized; no consensus was achieved on alternate wordings. (RfC November 2021) Trump's expressions of doubt regarding the Russian Bounties Program should be included in some capacity, though there there is no consensus on a specific way to characterize these expressed doubts. (RfC March 2022)

57. Do not mention in the lead Gallup polling that states Trump's the only president to never reach 50% approval rating. (RfC January 2022)

58. Use inline citations in the lead for the more contentious and controversial statements. Editors should further discuss which sentences would benefit from having inline citations. (RfC May 2022, discussion on what to cite May 2022)

59. Do not label or categorize Trump as a far-right politician. (RfC August 2022)

60. Insert the links described in the RfC January 2023.

61. When a thread is started with a general assertion that the article is biased for or against Trump (i.e., without a specific, policy-based suggestion for a change to the article), it is to be handled as follows:

1. Reply briefly with a link to Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias, optionally using its shortcut, WP:TRUMPRCB.
2. Close the thread using {{archive top}} and {{archive bottom}}, referring to this consensus item.
3. Wait at least 24 hours per current consensus #13.
4. Manually archive the thread.

This does not apply to posts that are clearly in bad faith, which are to be removed on sight. (May 2023)

62. The article's description of the five people who died during and subsequent to the January 6 Capitol attack should avoid a) mentioning the causes of death and b) an explicit mention of the Capitol Police Officer who died. (RfC July 2023)

63. Supersedes #18. The alma mater field of the infobox reads: "University of Pennsylvania (BS)". (September 2023)

64. Omit the {{Very long}} tag. (January 2024)

65. Mention the Abraham Accords in the article; no consensus was achieved on specific wordings. (RfC February 2024)

66. Omit {{infobox criminal}}. (RfC June 2024)

67. The "Health habits" section includes: "Trump says he has never drunk alcohol, smoked cigarettes, or used drugs. He sleeps about four or five hours a night." (February 2021)

Racially charged

Hello all, I see Consensus #30, based particularly on this Request for Comment says: "The lead includes: "Many of his comments and actions have been characterized as racially charged or racist."" I can also see that this is the only mention of "racially charged" in the article. Would editors here support removal of "racially charged" until such text is supported in the body? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Would editors here support removal of "racially charged" until such text is supported in the body? Not this one, per process. We're not going to amend #30 until the body is fixed, then reverse the amendment. "Racially charged" appears to have enough RS support, so just find a way to work it into the body. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:54, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

What does "reverse the amendment" mean? Go back to Consensus 24? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC) I understand. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I see the grammatical ambiguity. :) ―Mandruss ☎ 07:06, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

This seems backwards. Lead follows body. We shouldn't treat the consensus list as sacrosanct, it's merely there to keep track of RfCs. If the article has moved on, I'd support a new RfC to challenge the previous one. Riposte97 (talk) 07:32, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Riposte97 I think an RfC should be avoided if it can be. Do you think you could WP:FIXIT? I'll have a go as well in a bit. If we don't have luck we can look at overturning Consensus #30.

Given it's an WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim, high-quality sources will be needed. I wouldn't accept journalists being arbitrators of whether his comments were "racially charged", political scientists will have written on it and we shouldn't accept inferior sourcing. This is the standard that was applied for "cult of personality". Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Your reasoning seems consistent with WP:NEWSORG. A departure, probably more impactful (disruptive?) than you realize, but maybe ultimately good for the article. No strong opinion provided we adhere to the established consensus process. If that means revisiting #30, I suppose you pass the "significant new argument(s)" test. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave, apologies that I've not had the time to properly devote to this. I'll see what I can add to your page in the coming days. Riposte97 (talk) 10:37, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Yep definitely. 92.30.105.204 (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I have created a page User:Rollinginhisgrave/Trump racism descriptor as a space for research on this article. I intended to use academic sources in Racial views of Donald Trump as the basis to follow summary style, but extremely disappointingly, only six of the almost 500 sources are academic.

This is collaborative so please help! If this can be pinned to the top of this page for a short while it would be valuable. Remember, for WP:WEIGHT, we are not merely looking for multiple sources describing him or his comments/actions as racist/racially charged, but for the weighted response of high-quality academic sources to these questions. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch Pinging you in case this effort is of interest. Been working mostly on collating books right now as journals are daunting for finding discussion of general scholarly consensus. If you find other useful texts along the way providing a scholarly retrospective assessment on aspects, I'm currently dropping them in User:Rollinginhisgrave/sandbox_2. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:17, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Will do. Sorry if I'm slow today with journals but I will catch up. On this topic per MOS:LEADNO, not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text, however this statement absolutely should be cited per MOS:CITELEAD. Seems like a good place for a perfectly cited footnote. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:42, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks :) Yes the key issue is definitely it being uncited. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:48, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Tracking lead size

Word counts by paragraph and total.

05 Nov 2024 — 614 = 29 + 101 + 106 + 156 + 101 + 121

12 Nov 2024 — 657 = 46 + 101 + 116 + 175 + 176 + 43

19 Nov 2024 — 418 = 62 + 76 + 153 + 127

Religion in Donald Trump's life

Hi. I added 57 words to the thin content of the Religion section. Since these words were reverted with concern about length and mentions elsewhere in article, please discuss the added content here and the quality of the Reliable sources involved:

1. Added that his family's church was "led by Norman Vincent Peale." -- This point is made by Kelsey Dallas, an award-winning religion journalist (Deseret News), in her article, "What has Donald Trump said about religion?" (7-18-24) and elaborated by the NYT article "Overlooked Influences on Donald Trump: A Famous Minister and His Church" (9-5-16) -- 5 words
2. "During his childhood, he also went to the First Presbyterian Church in Brooklyn and donated to it in 2012." -- This church affiliation is completely missing from the article. It is supported by the Kelsey Dallas piece and this article in The Atlantic: Green, Emma (July 24, 2016). "Donald Trump Grew Up at a Church That's Now Full of Immigrants" -- 19 words
3. Added that his new identification as a non-denominational Christian is "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president." Source: Admin, C. (October 27, 2020). "Trump Becomes the First President Since Eisenhower to Change Faiths in Office". Christianity Today. More can be said about this salient shift, of course, but here adding only -- 10 words
4. "Trump appeals to Christian nationalists, according to a 2022 study" -- This key point is missing from the article. There are numerous sources that discuss his relationship to Christian nationalism, please Google News to confirm. Here I suggest an academic paper by leading scholars: Perry, Samuel L.; Whitehead, Andrew L.; Grubbs, Joshua B. (June 2022). "The Devil That You Know: Christian Nationalism and Intent to Change One's Voting Behavior For or Against Trump in 2020". Politics and Religion. 15 (2): 229–246. doi:10.1017/S175504832100002X. p.243 -- 10 words
5. "and in March 2024 he began to sell copies of a Christian Bible." -- Not elsewhere in the article. Source: Willingham, A. J. (March 28, 2024). "Why some Christians are angry about Trump's 'God Bless the USA' Bible". CNN. -- 13 words

Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life, especially because the personal is political for his relationship with Christian constituencies. In the current version, the word "Christian" only appears once in the article. I believe these 5 changes are written from a Neutral point of view, clearly Verified, and involve due Weight to a significant aspect of the subject's life. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, thanks in advance for comments. ProfGray (talk) 20:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

There is an argument for 2, 4, and 5 to be added. 1 and 3 are relatively trivial IMO. Cessaune [talk] 20:38, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I believe 1 is not trivial. The "power of positive thinking" is at the heart of Trump's philosophy. I believe it used to be in the article, but has been edited out at some point.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:53, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

1, 2, 3 are silly trivia. Ambivalent on the rest. Zaathras (talk) 01:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

4 seems more relevant. DN (talk) 01:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

There is too much religion material in the article. There should be something about his pandering to fundamentalist Christians , his strange messages to the Jews, and his attempts to monetize and brand himself with the Bible. Well, actually we do have the photo-op. SPECIFICO talk 01:55, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe the Bible is included in an article on Trump products.Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

You can now get the “The Day God Intervened” edition (custom embossed to in remembrance of the day that God intervened during President Donald J. Trump`s assassination attempt — English isn't the website's forte) of "the only Bible endorsed by" Trump, using his "name, likeness and image" under a license agreement with one of Trump's organizations, CIC Ventures LLC; $59.99, or $1,000 with President Donald J. Trump's Hand-Signed Signature. It's not a Trump-branded product, so it's mentioned in the last paragraph of The Trump Organization#Other ventures and investments. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:42, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: Hi there. Based on your suggestion more content about Christians, messages to Jews, etc., it looks like a typo and that you meant to write, "There is not too much religion..." -- is that right? ProfGray (talk) 19:11, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I meant there's too much insignificant content about church etc and not enough about his use of religion in efforts to pander to various groups. SPECIFICO talk 02:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x Thank you for the link to the godblesstheusabible website ... my brain just exploded.  • Bobsd •  (talk) 01:57, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

This edit moved Trump’s Sunday school confirmation from Religion to Early Life, and this edit removed Peale. Religion is a major issue in Trump's personal life — he was and is unable to name a favorite or cite a single verse or passage from the Bible. I just moved Sunday school back into the section. I assume Sunday school was mentioned only because of contradictory Trump claims about his religion/religiosity. I can't think of any other bio mentioning it as part of early life and education, not even Mike Pence's. Was tempted to remove it but didn't because of this discussion.

• this edit in May removed Peale. The Trumps started attending Marble Collegiate Church because of Peale's fame and feel-good-about-being-rich sermons. Seems trivial to me.
• Donation to Brooklyn church: It was apparently only reported by one source, The Atlantic, at the time which also reported that As far as Patrick O’Connor, the pastor, knows, the Republican presidential nominee has never tried to visit the church where he grew up—or, at least, not in several decades. Who knows why he sent a check in 2012, and was it a personal check or a Trump Foundation check?
• Christian nationalism. There's one sentence in Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Campaign events: The Associated Press noted that "Trump's rallies take on the symbols, rhetoric and agenda of Christian nationalism." It's part of his rhetoric to please a subset of his supporters, so it would belong in Donald Trump#2024 presidential campaign.
• "an unusual shift in religious affiliation for a sitting president" — trivial statistic. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems like Peale was an important influence on the Donald’s life, so I would strongly urge the reinstatement of that text. Jack Upland (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi. @Space4Time3Continuum2x, Thanks for your collaborative comments and for explaining your take to each of these points, which I appreciate, plus you looked up past edits. You also moved the Sunday school thing, even though you feel that it's unimportant. Your point (higher up) about the bible is clear and well-explained, so I get that (#5). If the donation is only one RS, then I can see leaving out of this article, though it may belong in a sub-article (#2).

• On Christian nationalism (#4), or Christian right / conservatism -- you suggest a different section, that's very helpful. There are numerous RS sources on his relationship to Christian movements, e.g., Trumpism article long section. It is deeper and earlier than the current campaign, so it might go under earlier under political career. But I'm puzzled because this article doesn't mention the political movement-building he has done, e.g., MAGA, Trumpism. and Christian conservatism. What's your sense of that? (FWIW, my #3 is related to all this, but less important than showing readers his evangelical coalition-building.)
• On Norman Vincent Peale -- Ok, it might sound trivial at first glance. But there are many sources that report, analyze, and opine about the relevance of Peale to Trump. Is it helpful if I give some links, or would that be off-putting here? CNBC 2020,NYT 2016, a Christian POV, biographer in Politico, WaPo 2016, evangelical POV, linking to his COVID approach (one of several), First Things conservative POV, and more.

Thanks for your consideration. ProfGray (talk) 19:52, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

A consensus appears to be forming for adding Trump's support of Christian nationality somewhere in the article. Peale influence: in an interview [Trump] described Dr. Peale as “a great preacher and a great public speaker” but said nothing about any religious beliefs he had imparted. (New York Times) Trump, in a telephone interview, ... said he was a young man when he first heard Norman Vincent Peale preach. “He would give the best sermons of anyone; he was an amazing public speaker,” Trump said. “He could speak for 90 minutes and people were upset when it was over.” Trump said he was drawn to stories the minister told in the pulpit about successful business executives “overcoming difficulties.” “I found that very interesting,” the billionaire said, adding that he and Peale became friends. “He thought I was his greatest student of all time.” (Washington Post) Sounds more transactional than faith-based. Also, are there any witnesses for Trump attending church every Sunday for 50 years? He has been known to lie ... Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:34, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Peale was a far-right Christian nationalist charlatan and a bigot whose model is reflected in much of Trump's present-day rhetoric. SPECIFICO talk 02:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

I think his relationship with Peale was transactional, but that's no reason not to include it!Jack Upland (talk) 02:56, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No, Peale was a hero and role model - like Roy Cohn, Putin, and Lechter. These icons impregnated the imagination of what would become today's Trump-2024. SPECIFICO talk 12:01, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on responses, I will aim to write something brief in the article about Trump's work with Christian conservatives and (arguable) support for Christian nationalism. Might be next week. It's fine, of course, if somebody else writes this into the article, please let me know via ping.

On Peale, it seems that he deserves at least limited mention as an inspiration (or other term) for Trump. I think this is easiest to put into Religion section, since Trump encountered hiim through church, but other suggested placements are welcome. Thanks for all your responses and finding further sources. ProfGray (talk) 02:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Space4Time3Continuum2x, in my comment above (Oct 9), I expressed what I took to be a suitable handling for Peale. While some users assumed Peale was trivial, I cited 8 different sources, including articles devoted to Peale's influence on Trump. Your comment mentioned NYT and WaPo. Specifico and Jack Upland affirmed the relevance of Peale. Please clarify your concerns, e.g., is Peale's influence not discussed by credible sources, should Peale's influenced be mentioned elsewhere in the article? Something else? Thanks. ProfGray (talk) 14:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

There's no consensus to add Peale. Only eight people participated in this discussion. Four opposed mentioning Peale, and one acquiesced to the opposed faction. Peale's page mentions Donald Trump, and Fred Trump's page mentions Peale's influence on Fred. Fred Trump was raised Lutheran, his children were raised in his wife's Presbyterian beliefs, became a member of the Norman Vincent Peale church of "positive thinking". Trump, who went back to living with his parents after he finished college, went along but seems to have come away with "assume the worst". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Factoid #2 needs to be removed and I'll acquiesce to those above who say that #1 and #3 should go. In general, it's more important how Trump is perceived by the religious right than trivialities about the few times he actually attended church. _pbp 20:45, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Based on discussion above, I'm adding a Christian nationalism sentence to a subsection on Trump's campaign rhetoric: "Without being conventionally religious, Trump used Christian nationalist rhetoric that portrayed Christians under siege in America and that promised its renewal as a Christian nation." This is based on the most cited authors on Christian nationalism in contemporary American politics (this article has been cited 500+ times): Whitehead, Andrew L., Samuel L. Perry, and Joseph O. Baker. "Make America Christian again: Christian nationalism and voting for Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election." Sociology of religion 79, no. 2 (2018): 147-171. esp pages 150-153. It'd be good to have at least one sentence on his coalition building with evangelical / conservative Christians. ProfGray (talk) 17:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

In line with the above discussion, I also added a sentence on Norman Vincent Peale in the "Religion" subsection. There are various sources, noted above, so I chose the liberal NY Times and the conservative First Things, which both give a pretty reasonable account of how Trump was influenced by Peale. ProfGray (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I reverted the addition of Peale since there is no consensus for it, and I replaced the material you added with the material we discussed here. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:56, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

I don't care to take on uninvolved closure here, but the last comment of any substance was on 30 October. What do the participants think? Close as resolved or no? ―Mandruss ☎ 19:05, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I've removed the closure. More discussion needed. Elaborating shortly. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 19:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Justifications for inclusion here are very thin. Relative importance of facts to the topic Trump and religion is assessed by editors applying editorial judgement as to whether facts are trivial, which is one of the weakest ways of ensuring NPOV. The first article linked makes an effort to contextualize facts in how important they are to Trump's religion overall, but it is a weak source, given "there is no consensus on whether the Deseret News is independent of the LDS Church." Better sources exist to assess what facts are significant re Trump and religion, the key one being [1] which "Provides a scholarly retrospective on the presidential legacies of... Trump [re; religion].Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Useful summary of Trump's relationship with religion in the context of his biography and politics (page 284) "Yet a closer look revealed that Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life. For several decades, the Trump family selected the Fifth Avenue church, Marble Collegiate, as a spiritual home. Marble’s pastor, Methodist minister Norman Vincent Peale, embodied an unorthodox, psychology-based Christian preaching, pro-business message, and connections to Republican Party politicians. After Donald Trump’s parents died, he frequently consulted a nondenominational, televangelist pastor Paula White. Meanwhile, Trump’s daughter Ivanka converted to Judaism and married the Orthodox Jew real estate developer Jared Kushner in 2009." Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Rewrote using above. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: you have not established consensus for this restoration; please self-revert. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Nikkimaria, happy to revert, before I do could you clarify what you mean by "establish consensus for this restoration"? I understand what constitutes a revert is contentious, but I also believe I was following bold, revert, discuss. This is as you deleted the discussion on religion, which has been in the article for a long time, even if not in this form, and I reverted it. If you were reverting my change in the content of the religion section, you would restore the previous content. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:29, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I reverted your addition of new religion-related content, and request that you get consensus for it before restoring. Is what you posted above a direct quote from the source? If so, your proposal also seems like very close paraphrasing, except for the vaguer last sentence. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:56, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria I've restored the text before my edit. My edit was not an addition but a replacement. The above is a direct quote and I spent a fair bit of time trying to reword but apparently did so poorly. Summaries of summaries are always difficult, I'll have another go.

You initially described the content as "overdetail", could you elaborate why you think so in light of the quote I provided? "Christianity, and to a lesser extent Judaism, played a significant and complex role in Trump’s life" (Carty & Rozell, 2023) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:13, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Not everything that can be sourced warrants inclusion, and this particular material doesn't provide a lot of concrete value - what does it mean to "play a significant role"? Having a Jewish family member doesn't mean that Judaism as a religion influences your views. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The chapter the text is summarising elaborates what it means to play a significant role. I'll come back to this in an hour or so when I have source access and expand. I'm unsure the article text will be able to convey this significance beyond listing significant facts without being very long, it may be eligible for a split into a standalone article on Trump's relationship with religion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:49, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Donald Trump has no significant relationship with religion, outside of occasionally using an upside-down bible as a political prop. No place in this article, and the idea of a standalone article is absurd. Zaathras (talk) 04:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Zaathras, I will be unavailable to discuss this for the next hour. For when I am available, would you be able to provide reliable sources of equivalent quality attesting that Trump has no significant relationship with religion? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:20, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

A few hours later, here nonetheless.

• Peale: Attended by whole family. Entrepreneurial approach to Christianity appealed to Trump and his dad. Peale presided his marriage to Ivana. Relationship expanded in 80s, such as using Peale as a character reference when entering Atlanta casino industry. Endorsed in Peale's autobiography. Business ethic in 80s reflected a secular interpretation of Peale's Christianity. Relationship to Marbles Church heavily emphasized during Marla scandal. Peale's successor officiated wedding to Marla.
• White: Frequently consulted White after parents death after reaching out to her in 2001, serving as a personal pastor. With Melania, stood by White during scandals (misuse of funds, second divorce, bankruptcy of church.
• Judaism: Ivanka-Kushner marriage notable in and of itself. Kushner's family contacts got Trump a speech at AIPAC, promoting Israel's interests. Coming up to 2016, Trump courted Jewish and Evangelical groups. Trump made inroads with the Jewish vote, who had traditionally been Democratic voters. Enrolled conservative Jews to leadership positions. Kushner is attributed as responsible for changing platform to Israel to rejecting Palestinian state promotion. Kushner's family had a long-term relationship to Netanyahu (he stayed in Jared's bedroom when Jared was a teenager?) so on.

Roughly rewritten proposal, clarifying "play a significant role": For decades, Trump and his family attended the Marble Collegiate Church, maintaining a personal relationship with Protestant preacher Norman Vincent Peale. Peale, who emphasized a pro-business, psychology-based ministry, is credited with influencing Trump's business ethic that emphasized "success" during the 1980s. Following his parent's deaths, the non-denominational televangelist Paula White served as Trump's personal pastor, being frequently consulted and sometimes defended by Trump. After his daughter Ivanka married Jewish businessman Jared Kushner in 2009, Trump successfully courted the Democratic Jewish vote, employing the help of Kushner and his family to write policy and reach Israeli organizations and Jewish voters. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

This still has a lot of detail that isn't needed, and I don't think Israeli policy belongs in a personal-life section - you could propose incorporating that particular piece in a rewrite of the existing Israel section. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:30, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

What information do you think can be cut while still establishing the significance in-text of these core facts (Peale, White, Kushner)? A rewrite may be the best to express this. I do think your suggestion to move some to the Israel section is a good idea: it would help the article be cohesive rather than the current siloing approach and the significance would still be established. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Based on the discussion above there does not seem to be consensus to include Peale at this point. "Following his parents' death, televangelist Paula White became Trump's personal pastor" covers White. I don't think anything regarding Kushner belongs in this context, though as mentioned might elsewhere. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I've challenged that consensus by introducing a source which supersedes those previously discussed. I agree with you that given Kushnerhis relationship with Judaism is largely significant relating to politics, moving it there would be the best place. However, I don't think as the article is written it fits in anywhere there at the moment, I'll work on rewriting it over the next few weeks. Until then, this is the best, albeit imperfect place. I can expand if this doesn't make sense. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:46, 22 November 2024 (UTC) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:51, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria, I favor mention of Peale (noted in a different thread, not the above discussion). Rollinginhisgrave, we have a Harv warning error because Carty & Rozell is unused (I'd remove it but wonder if it will be back soon). Trappist the Monk's script will show these errors. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch I did remove it, unsure how it's returned. I have got Trappist the Monk's excellent script, we can remove for now, not too much effort to add it back in. I may need to make a formal proposal below of the text change, although I hope Nikkimaria can weed out any excessive text before that. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:45, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Correction, I might be off by a generation, Nikkimaria. I am reading that Mary Trump says Peale influenced Fred Trump (Donald's dad) the most. -SusanLesch (talk) 21:32, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

In which case his article would be the better place for Peale. As to this is the best, albeit imperfect place - no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:44, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree and he's already there. I found one paragraph on p. 81 in Kranish & Fisher (2016) that says he was important, a mentor to Donald, who taught him to think of positive outcomes, but Peale wasn't really mentioned again. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:00, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

• his article would be the better place for Peale I am unsure the best way to respond to this. Could you expand on your reasoning here, preferably with reference to policies and guidelines?
• no, it can wait for a rewrite of a different section The only relevant carveout for excluding DUE content I can think of here is MOS:TRIVIA, which notes Otherwise valid content should ultimately be removed if there isn't a good place for it. There is a good place for it here, a discussion on his relationship with religion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:55, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that that is a good place for it, because what you're proposing is much more relevant to his political career than his personal religious views. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

What is written about his biography re; religion is not limited to his views, but its role in his life, including influence. We should reflect the emphasis placed by reliable sourcing rather than insert our preferences. It is a good place for a discussion on his relationship to religion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

There are a plethora of reliable sources that caution against conflating "relationship to religion" (whatever that means) and "position on Israel".

At this point it seems unlikely we will agree on position, so let's see if anyone else will agree with either perspective. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes no worries about us not agreeing on a perspective, I was making an effort to iron out the contents before making a formal proposal in a less impenetrable thread. I appreciate the note on cutting down the Paula White content, I'll sum up your thoughts in such a proposal. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal: Age and health concerns regarding Trump

OK. Here's my proposal: that a section be added that reports the public discussion of concerns about his health, which are now a major part of public discourse. It should obviously not itself speculate on Trump's mental fitness, only report on the comments of WP:RS according to the WP:NPOV guidelines. This would not violate WP:MEDRS, because it would not express an opinion on his mental state, only report on the opinions of others. Opinions, please? — The Anome (talk) 11:32, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

A consensus/new consensus can be established without an RfC. You've already started the discussion on this page. Opening an RfC at this point would be improper, IMO. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:35, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

If you insist on going that route, this is the procedure: Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:40, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• Just to start off: support as proposer, per comments above. — The Anome (talk) 11:38, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Anome, I suggest you notify the talk page of the article from which your proposed content originated. That page is 6 years old, so the editors there are likely knowledgeable. SPECIFICO talk 20:57, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Best 'not' to hand out such a notification at another talkpage, Anome. Less that be construed as canvassing for support. GoodDay (talk) 21:02, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• No, it is media speculation, not a clinical diagnosis, and this is a BLP. Slatersteven (talk) 11:39, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• yes it is time, esp after the 39 minute dance this week the topic has received quite a bit of coverage. whether it is a 'diagnosis' or not is not an issue, a encyclopedia is not drawing a medically-based conclusion it is just reflecting the preponderance of the sources. ValarianB (talk) 13:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• No or at best, very limited yes. I know we don't cite other wiki pages. But just for comparison, the Joe Biden main page only gives it about a vague sentence or two, and that's for a figure who's cognitive decline has been much more prominent and widely discussed by RS. Also, that section is titled much more neutrally simply as "Age and health." So overall, this is a "no" unless significantly scaled back. Just10A (talk) 13:50, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• No It looks like they are not sincere age and health concerns but political attacks with no consensus of medical professionals. In the last stages of an election campaign, I think it's just part of an expected full court press. Bob K31416 (talk) 14:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  That's a straw man. The topic is concerns, which have been found NOTABLE on the abundantly sourced wiki page from which the recent content and deletion originated. If it were a medical diagnosis, the lead of this page would simply state "Donald Trump is the demented former POTUS and the demented candidate for 2024." But it isn't a diagnosis and nobody's suggested it is. There should not be a formal poll of any sort here. It's already under discussion and @GoodDay: has provided no policy or content-based rationale not to include this summary of a relevant article, similar to many others on this page. Lacking any such rationale, the removal appears meddlesome and destructive. SPECIFICO talk 15:11, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you suggesting editors who oppose the addition, are disruptive? GoodDay (talk) 15:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

• No - as he hasn't been diagnosed with having any such medical issues. GoodDay (talk) 14:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
• No - We are not going to use non-MEDRS soucres to speculated on someone's mental or physical health. We wouldn't do it with Joe or anyone else. It's also laughable un-encyclopedic. Also it should probably be an RFC to overturn two RFCs and a bunch of previous discussions that all found the same thing. PackMecEng (talk) 14:53, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe [2]. DN (talk) 15:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Ugh, well we shouldn't. PackMecEng (talk) 16:59, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see a way to "unring" that bell. DN (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Not to point fingers or drag this out even further (see below), but this (correction, see comment by Just10A above) seems to be where comparisons to the Biden article actually started. Cheers. DN (talk) 10:35, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

• Yes See Joe Biden#2024 presidential campaign. "After the debate raised questions about his health and age, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets". I understand BLP's require extra care, but "concern" doesn't seem to be weasely enough, as long as it's attributed in a verifiable context outside of VOICE. If the same rules that apply to Biden also apply to Trump, "Refuses to release medical records" with "attributed concerns" is where the bar currently sits. See "More than 230 doctors and health care providers, most of whom are backing Vice President Kamala Harris, call on Trump to release medical records" ABC NYT, Independent, CBS. Also see Age and health concerns about Donald Trump Cheers. DN (talk) 15:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  And Biden did step down, is there any indication of similar pressure on Trump from within the GOP? Slatersteven (talk) 15:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  It's not a qualifier as far as I know. Was the "raised questions about Biden's health" only allowed to be added AFTER he stepped down? Cheers. DN (talk) 15:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well I recall making the same arguments there as here, and it all changed when it actually had an impact on the election. Slatersteven (talk) 15:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Let's look at the tape. Looks like concerns about Biden's health were added on the 4th of July "After the debate raised questions about his health, Biden faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Democrats and the editorial boards of several major news outlets"[3] and Biden didn't resign until July 21st. Did I miss something? DN (talk) 15:44, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  NO, but I did, as I had opposed that in the past, and did not see the addition. Slatersteven (talk) 15:52, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  I can see wanting to err on the side of caution, but the cat is out of the bag and fairness is the name of the game, and other such idioms... DN (talk) 16:04, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  So we could say then "After a series of rallies raised questions about his health, Trump faced calls to withdraw from the race, including from fellow Republicana and the editorial boards of several major news outlets", would this be supported by RS? Slatersteven (talk) 16:10, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  AFAIK There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar. Only that it must be based on what the sources say. DN (talk) 20:24, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  1.) Do not substantively edit your comments after editors have already replied to them without indicating it. That is against guidelines.

  2.) I don't know how you can argue "There is no policy stipulating the statements must be similar" when just above that you argued "Kinda seems like we did do that with Joe" and "fairness is the name of the game."

  I agree that policy doesn't mandate they match, but you gotta pick a side. You can't argue "Policy says they don't need to be similar" and then simultaneously say "They gotta similar or else it's unfair." Just10A (talk) 20:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Just10A If I acted improperly I apologize, as it wasn't my intent to mislead anyone, hence the clarification. I wasn't aware adding afaik is considered a substantive change.

  I believe my yes vote implies that I have picked a side. TMK I'm allowed to make observations and express views on the appearance of possible inconsistencies in the application of policy in good faith. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:00, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  No problem. I was referring to you adding the ABC source in your earlier comment though just to be clear. I agree that adding AFAIK is more minor. Just10A (talk) 22:03, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, then I was way off on what I thought you were referring to. I was about to start adding TMK and AFAIK to all of my sentences. I meant to add the ABC source in my original edit, but I goofed. Truly sorry if that screwed something up, I've had similar experiences so I empathize. DN (talk) 22:21, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  @Just10A I would briefly add that, TMK the application of policy and the substance of the context being proposed do not represent two conflicting interpretations of the same policies AFAIK. DN (talk) 22:08, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

  True, but it also means they are not the same situation, which was my point, that they are not analogous. Slatersteven (talk) 10:42, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) I'd like to see someone confirm what sort of secondary coverage is here, but WP:MEDRS is irrelevant here because biographical information is not biomedical information: we should almost never include things like how a disease works or how it is diagnosed (except insofar to mention the subject isn't, when that's the case) on a biographical article in the first place. That is not to say we should not ask for the absolute best quality sources, but MEDRS is an inappropriate guideline here. Also, discussion on this topic will also need to consider how and where primary sources are used on the subarticle. Due weight concerns don't go away simply because the content happens to be on another article, and not mentioning something we have an entire subarticle on even once in the main article is close to essentially forcing the subarticle to be a POV fork, an outcome I'd expect neither those supporting nor opposing inclusion should want. Alpha3031 (t • c) 22:23, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

I also don't see how WP:MEDRS (identifying reliable third-party published secondary sources accurately reflecting current knowledge on biomedical information (information relating to or could reasonably be perceived as relating to human health)) applies. If a majority of reliable sources describes the candidate's speech as increasingly incoherent and his behavior as increasingly bizarre, it's not a medical diagnosis. Consensus 39: This does not prevent inclusion of content about temperamental fitness for office. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:33, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

No. This is still a BLP. Riposte97 (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment For anyone interested in additional details about "Age and health concerns about Joe Biden" being added to the LEAD of Joe Biden's BLP, they appeared about nine days before he bowed out of the 2024 presidential race. It made it onto the LEAD on July 12, [4]. On the 18th a CFN tag was added [5], then removed [6], then re-added and removed again on the 19th [7], back on the 20th [8], removed same day [9], then again re-added by FMSky on the 20th [10], then removed again same day [11], re-added same day [12], and finally within the next 8-24 hours he dropped out [13]. Cheers. DN (talk) 02:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Let me clarify 2 more things then I'm outta here. First, I goofed again when I pinged FMSky, total brain fart that might be perceived as intentional CANVAS or sabotage, I'm just tired from editing all day and got distracted putting diffs together. It's no excuse it's just being honest, you can check my contribs. I doubt they would agree with my vote anyway. Second, I'm not saying this is a good reason to do the same thing here, I just think it's relevant somehow. Sorry if I screwed up, it wont happen again (here at least). Cheers. DN (talk) 02:45, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• Include. In the last 5-14 days since Harris released her "excellent health" report, there has been renewed coverage in RS about Trump's refusal to release his medical records[14][15][16] and the recent town hall that was even beyond the usual performance standard.[17] Even after Biden it was mentioned [18][19][20][21] Andre🚐 05:49, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• Yes, there is polling and Trump hasn't disclosed his medical records.

JohnAdams1800 (talk) 02:26, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes. People say that it should not be included because there is no MEDRS-level source that lists Trump's health. However, this did not stop concerns about Biden's health being added to the Joe Biden page, nor did it stop the creation of the Age and health concerns about Joe Biden Wikipedia page. There is also an Age and health concerns about Donald Trump page. Wikipedia is governed by the consensus of reliable sources, and multiple reliable sources have brought up this topic to the extent that an entire individual page on the wiki exists to cover it, thus the content is WP:DUE. To not at least mention it on this page would be a violation of WP:NPOV and I don't like it through the introduction of editorial bias by having Wikipedia editors decide that the issue is "not important" enough to mention on this page, despite multiple RS clearly making the case that this issue is worth mentioning. BootsED (talk) 03:58, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• Regarding the rally in Oaks, PA that's been mentioned in this section and in various news media sources, here's the full video of it from C-SPAN [22]. I think it's been mischaracterized as age and health concerns for Trump. Bob K31416 (talk) 07:28, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
• Yes! Its absurd having a long article Age_and_health_concerns_about_Donald_Trump with 120 references but trying to hide that in the main article. This is really a hot topic in the media (US and abroad) so deleting it here is really ridiculous. Especially with the Joe Biden entry featuring such an paragraph. Andol (talk) 19:03, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Amen to this. Biden has never been diagnosed with dementia, so it would be wildly improper to suggest that he does, per WP:MEDRS, but we can and should report the widely WP:RS-reported public political controversy regarding the possibility of dementia, per WP:NPOV, as it is politically significant. Trump should not be treated as a special case who is somehow privileged over others. — The Anome (talk) 06:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes for basically the reason Andol gave. There's a long article on these concerns, so we clearly have ample sourcing for them, so it's weird we're not mentioning them much here. Loki (talk) 01:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The decline may not have been as obvious as Biden's because it started from a much lower baseline, but it was noticeable and noticed. Just this week, there was the 39-minute musical interlude at the Oaks, PA, town hall; the non-responsive rambling during the Bloomberg interview; on Friday, a 10-year old asked Trump on [Fox&Fiends (at 34:26) who his favorite president was when he was little. Trump said "Reagan", then rambled on about Lincoln, the Civil War, Ukraine, Russia, October 7, buying oil from Iran, etc.; and at yesterday's rally in Latrobe, PA, where he "spewed crude and vulgar remarks" and regaled the crowd with tales of Arnold Palmer being "strong and tough" and "unbelievable" in the shower, adding to the "impression of [Trump] as increasingly unfiltered and undisciplined". Quoting the AP headline: Trump kicks off a Pennsylvania rally by talking about Arnold Palmer’s genitalia. NPR called it "an unusually energetic rally for the former president, who has looked and sounded tired of late while doing multiple events and interviews a day across multiple swing states".Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:50, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• Oaks Town Hall — (Good-faith refactoring of distracting side issue was reverted. The following posts were in response to this. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC) )

It wasn't a rally. It was a "town hall" staged by the Trump campaign, with Republican operatives posing as "constituents" and reading off cue cards. One of them, "Angelina who had voted Democrat all my life and was from a Democrat union household" had to correct herself because she forgot to say "union household"; she's Angelina Banks who was the Republican nominee for Township Commissioner and State Representative in Pennsylvania's 154th and lost with 19.3% to Nelson's 80.7%. Mischaracterized? The campaign had prepared 10 Q&As but after five the Q&A turned into a bizarre musical event with Trump giving a minion a playlist and then standing on stage not even dancing. Just standing, occasionally swaying, jerking his arms, finger-pointing at the audience, and making faces/smiling(?). And, in keeping with the musical theme, two days later Fox unearthed the set of Hee Haw for an all-women town hall with an audience of MAGA supporters asking curated puff questions. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 11:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Sources

I think it's been mischaracterized... You personal analysis of reliable sources is of no concern to this page. If the sources cover this as an example of the subject's mental decline, then so shall we. Not necessarily in the proverbial "WikiVoice" but as "sources say." For now. Zaathras (talk) 12:12, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

• No There are no reliable secondary sources reporting that Trump has age-related cognitive decline, just speculation from his opponents. One editor mentioned that we covered this for Biden, but it was in the article about his recent presidential campaign. That's where this informtion belongs. It isn't possible to list every accusation made by his opponents in this article, so there is a high bar for inclusion. TFD (talk) 11:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Speculation from his opponents? You mean denial of his supporters? I think it is obvious to everyone except is supporters that he has massive issues. This is not a political campaign. It is a topic reported in international media all over the world, even making headlines. And everyone can see it. The only news outlets that don't report on this are the conservative media in US! Think about that. Greetings from Germany, where Trumps decline seems to be better covered than in (the conservative) parts of the US media. Andol (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there something askew with these sources? They seem to be speculating at the very least.

NYT: Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age

Independent: Trump’s rambling and angry speeches raise questions about his age and fitness to serve four years

Independent: Experts say Trump’s speaking style shows ‘potential indications of cognitive decline’

New Republic: Watch: Embarrassing Video Reveals Trump’s Alarming Cognitive Decline

The Atlantic: Trump’s Repetitive Speech Is a Bad Sign

WaPo: What science tells us about Biden, Trump and evaluating an aging brain

LA Times: Trump’s rhetorical walkabouts: A sign of ‘genius’ or cognitive decline?

Cheers. DN (talk) 02:21, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources lose their reliability when they express politically motivated opinion and manipulation during a heated election campaign. Buried in one of those sources is a glimmer of rational journalistic integrity, "...the experts in memory, psychology, and linguistics who spoke to STAT noted that they couldn’t give a diagnosis without conducting an examination...". Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 11:17, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Not according to policy, bias it not a justification for rejecting a source, only lack of factual accuracy. Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Don't fall for the bias claim. It doesn't make you biased if you report on those glaring issues. They are obvious. Rather the opposite is true. It takes willful denial, i.e. bias, to not see it. The whole point here is that Trump as a whole is such an abnormal person that he has shifted the goalposts to such a distance that there is no standard to measure him and thus he can get away with anything. And that is a problem for Wikipedia, because Biden is compared to normal people (making him look old), while Trump is compared to himself. Add the near-total polarization in the US, which has his supporters deny everything, even the possibility that there could be anything. Please step back and look up, how the Rest of the world looks at Trump and this election. It's not how the US see it. Trust me. 80 % of the population is in utter disbelieve how Trump with all of his glaring issues even got there, lest how someone who is right in his mind can even think a second of voting for him. And we do really debate if he has issues? Claiming he hasn't is biased, not the other way round. This is a clear situation where the truth is not halfway in the middle. Look at this. Just imagine Joe Biden or Kamala Harris being on stage bragging about the size of some dudes dick. The outcry would be thermonuclear and it would be broadly covered in his or her article in literally five seconds. Here? Thats Trump, normal day in the office, so what. Irrelevant, he made a thousand similar remarks. And that creates a systematic bias pro Trump, because there is no standard he doesn't fall short of, and therefore nothing is noteworthy, no matter how egregious. Andol (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

• No - If it was to be included, it would have to be introduced as mere speculation because of MEDRS, but I do not believe there has been any particulary significant RS reporting of speculation about cognitive decline as there was about Biden nor any substantive reason (like a drop out over it) to include it. Trump's speculated cognitive decline has only been popping in the news for the past couple months because he's now the old guy on the ticket, and Dems naturally want to capitalize on that. Not WP:DUE at this time. R. G. Checkers ^talk 14:51, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
  • @R. G. Checkers: And yet we have all the cites from mainstream media WP:RS cited above. Mysteriously, this sort of reporting is regarded as WP:NPOV when it comes to Biden, yet not for Trump. As Elon Musk would say, "Interesting." Is there any point at which you might regarded the public debate about Trump's mental competence noteworthy enough to mention here, or are you just waiting for the election to be over? — The Anome (talk) 17:48, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    Yes, and it won’t be because he danced at a rally. It would be if there was sustained coverage over months long periods with concerns of cognitive decline or if he literally had drop out of the race because of it. But do I think that 3 weeks before an election with politics flaring and a sudden emphasis on his alleged mental decline is a good reason for inclusion? I answer no. R. G. Checkers ^talk 19:18, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    In other words, WP:DUE but not before the election? I didn't know WP had to adhere to DOJ guidelines. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:40, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    Is there some policy I'm not aware of that gives a waiting period, especially if your name isn't Joe Biden? DN (talk) 20:43, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    That's not exactly what Mr. Checkers said. I agree that we should ensure the content is WP:DUE by waiting to see if it's a blip, or something carried through by the sources for more than a few days. Space4Time3Continuum2x, you are usually a stalwart adherent of both established consensus and conservative application of policy - what gives? Riposte97 (talk) 21:08, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

    Last week happened. (I'm still trying to unimagine the unbelievable Arnold Palmer in the shower — a few extra nipples, a rudimentary third leg, a tattoo of Richard Nixon on his back? Although that one is on Roger Stone, I believe, another Trump friend.) This isn't new. NYT in 2018: "Trump's self-absorption, impulsiveness, lack of empathy, obsessive focus on slights, tenuous grasp of facts and penchant for sometimes far-fetched conspiracy theories have generated endless op-ed columns, magazine articles, books, professional panel discussions and cable television speculation." Now we have a flood of reporting on what was obvious for months for everyone who watched Trump rallys on C-SPAN. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:03, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    Your personal analysis or perceived opinion on what's "obvious" about political candidates is irrelevant to the discussion at issue. You're getting seriously close to WP:NOTFORUM. Quit rambling and stick to neutral discussion about the topic at hand to improve the encyclopedia. Just10A (talk) 16:27, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    WP:NOPA. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:53, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    Asking you to stop violating policy is not a personal attack. Just10A (talk) 18:26, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    This has been reported on maybe as far back as 2017.

    2017

    2017

    2017

    2017

    2017

    Jan 2024

    No one seems to be suggesting this goes into the lead sentence, and as far as policy goes, eerily similar material to Age and health concerns about Donald Trump made it into the the Biden article as far back as July 4th, and it's STILL there. DN (talk) 19:12, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    As is frequently pointed out to new users of this page, the fact that some other page on Wikipedia has a different consensus has no bearing on this one. That is usually understood when we are resisting putting something positive in, but seems all to quickly jettisoned when convenient. Regarding the Oaks Town Hall which precipitated this thread, neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources that Trump had some kind of mental episode. See for example: https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Politics/trump-town-hall-derailed-after-medical-emergencies-crowd/story?id=114796716. I remain unconvinced that the content should be added. Riposte97 (talk) 20:41, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    "neutral RS seem to offer an explanation that is inconsistent with the line pushed by more partisan sources"

    These threads get so long it's hard to keep track. Please link or cite examples of partisan and neutral sources to which you're referring if you get the chance, it would be very helpful. Cheers. DN (talk) 20:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

    Judging by the headlines, we shouldn't use the 2017 sources per the Goldwater rule (psychiatrists/psychologists diagnosing people they haven't seen as patients). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:45, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

    Also, I may a bit confused as to where this thread begins and ends. I may be unintentionally conflating the Oaks town hall and the Proposal: Age and health concerns...Cheers. DN (talk) 21:38, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

• The 39 minute weird man-dancing (partly to YMCA, a song about gay hookups of all things) may actually be the worst example of his cognitive decline as he was quiet instead of rambling nonsense. Indeed, it could be an example of something not at all recent. It certainly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps elsewhere. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:18, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  Not sure if you've seen the unbiased raw video of the Oaks, PA event. On the webpage of C-SPAN's presentation of the full video [23], to the right there is a list of the points of interest in the video: Gov. Kristi Noem (R-SD) Remarks, Fmr. President Trump Remarks, Affordable Homeownership, Family Request Congressional Hearing, Cost of Living, Immigration, Russia-Ukraine War, Immigration & Deportation, Medical Emergency. Notably missing from C-SPAN's list is "weird man-dancing". Bob K31416 (talk) 11:12, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  What's your point? The C-SPAN video shows the entire event. The music starts at 45:00 and continues until the end. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  For context, note that the first medical emergency began at 39:00, 6 minutes before your start time. Viewing the video starting at 39:00 will give a better idea of what's going on. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 23:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

  I've seen the video and I don't see your point either. Trump just said that he is ahead in every one of the 50 states in the polls. Every state. His goofy, silent dancing was far more rational. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:49, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What particularly irritates me here is the double standard of invoking WP:MEDRS in regard to this. No-one is asking for Wikipedia to state that Trump has dementia, or that he has suffered a medical cognitive decline; the issue here is that his increasingly erratic behavior has become a significant news story, and is being reported in reputable MSM sources such as the NYT and WP, who have bent over backwards to be fair to Trump, wouldn't have dreamed of doing eveen a few months ago. Yet for some reason, we're not allowed to use these WP:RS to report these events and the public concern about them in the MSM. This is a profoundly un-encyclopedic things to do that breaks the fundamental WP:NPOV policy. Rejecting any mention of significant major MSM coverage because you don't like it is just another form of WP:OR, — The Anome (talk) 17:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

But that is the consensus on this article. That MEDRS sources are required, even to have the conversation technically. PackMecEng (talk) 17:39, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

If this is absolute, then it could not be in the Biden article. But it is. Therefore there is no way to deny the pro Trump bias. MEDRS cannot only protect Trump, but ignore Biden. To me the deletion sounds politically motivated. And that is a major problem. Andol (talk) 20:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

@Andol Look at the top of the page in current consensus #39. Nothing is politically motived. PackMecEng (talk) 22:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I made a WP:BOLD edit to see how this plays out [24]. Maybe there is consensus? DN (talk) 04:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm good with it and hope it sticks. PackMecEng (talk) 14:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry DN, could you link to your change? I can't seem to find it. Riposte97 (talk) 20:17, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

He changed it on the Joe Biden page, not the Trump one. I had the same confusion initially. Just10A (talk) 20:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah. Thank you. Riposte97 (talk) 20:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do NOT refer to me as "he". They or them is fine. DN (talk) 10:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree MEDRS applies there any more than it does here, but I don't particularly care if it's in the lead or how much weight to give to it, so long as it's there. I will revert if someone tries to remove all three paragraphs about it in the other article though. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:30, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

An editor has now re-added Age and health concerns about Joe Biden back into the lead on Joe Biden's BLP. I am not going to remove it, and agree that we should leave it. IMO Age and health concerns about Donald Trump now seems over-DUE here. DN (talk) 05:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Mx. Nipples, the existence of a section on another page has absolutely zero bearing on what should be on this one. None. We go by consensus, not by precedent. Riposte97 (talk) 05:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Off-topic about gender pronouns. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Please do not refer to me as "Mx." or "Mr." as that appears to be your intent. They/them is accurate. DN (talk) 06:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC) (Given that "x" is nowhere near "r" on a keyboard, I'm guessing "Mx." was not a typo but an attempt to be gender neutral. It can be read as a convenient shorthand for "Mr., Ms., or M-other, as you please". It's the best attempt available, since "They/them Nipples" would be nonsensical. Maybe we don't need to go any further down this rabbit hole, at least not on this page.) ―Mandruss ☎ 06:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC) I simply asked for them not to call me that, I did not get upset or make a personal attack, I just made a simple request. I'm aware of what Mx. means and I simply do not wish be referred to in that manner. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here, and that is a rabbit hole that certainly does not belong here. DN (talk) 06:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC) I read "Mr." as that appears to be your intent to mean you thought they meant (intended) "Mr.". Sorry if I misread easily-misread writing. I do not care why you think it's any of your business or why you feel the need to intervene here - Now you're gettin' me riled. Look, you comment on this page, regardless of the topic, and you open yourself up to replies from anybody. There are no "private" conversations here or almost anywhere else at Wikipedia. You want a "private" conversation, use email. That's how it works, like it or not. End. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:49, 28 October 2024 (UTC) You're the one that brought it up here, and I have since moved it to a personal talk page, where it belongs. DN (talk) 06:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

↑↑↑↑ Agree as to process. Other articles never affect this article unless a community consensus says they do for a specific discrete situation. This is a common misconception, understandable given the human desire for consistency, but you won't find it anywhere in policy, and not for lack of attempts to make it so. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That was more of an aside. See Riposte's removal of cited content on the current subject, referring to a now seemingly dormant discussion. DN (talk) 06:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. It's been covered extensively in media reports, which is the only criteria that really matters here. Cessaune [talk] 17:50, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

• Question Riposte97 See edit - There has been no further discussion here for the last few days. What is still being discussed? BTW, "age and health concerns for Joe Biden" was added back into his BLP in the lead, and I see no further arguments over MEDRS. DN (talk) 05:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  If you have a problem with the Biden page, take it to the Biden page. There is currently no consensus to add the disputed material to this page. Riposte97 (talk) 05:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I never had a problem with the Biden BLP, but I asked you what is left to discuss here. DN (talk) 06:20, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I'll ask again. What is left to discuss? DN (talk) 20:27, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  I agree with you that there isn't a ton left to discuss. But the discussion did not end with your proposed addition achieving consensus. As already outlined in this thread: (1) wikipedia is not a source, what occurs on a totally different page has no bearing on this one; and (2) Even if it did, the situations are clearly distinguishable. It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race. The same is not true for Trump. Thus, since the situations are distinguishable and consensus has not adopted it, it's unlikely to be added. Just10A (talk) 20:44, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  To be clear, it wasn't my proposal, and the primary argument against the addition seemed to be that it violated MEDRS, not because this BLP needed to be like the Biden BLP. The Biden BLP was only used as an example of how the MEDRS argument didn't seem to hold water. DN (talk) 20:56, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  "It's included on Biden's page as relevant primarily because it's the reason Biden dropped out of the race."

  I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other?

  Anyway, that content was added BEFORE Biden dropped out.

  So, there goes that excuse. DN (talk) 05:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I thought we weren't using edits from one BLP as an example to justify similar edits to the other? We aren't. That's why I explicitly began the point with "Even if it did". We don't use another page as a source, but even if we did, the situations are clearly distinguishable for the reasons already outlined throughout the post. The addition doesn't have consensus, so it's not going to be added at this time. Just10A (talk) 13:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Just to be clear, I'm not advocating for the Oaks Town Hall to be used as evidence for concerns about age and health, especially in VOICE. Far from it. I simply disagree that there is any clear violation of MEDRS to include something like (below)

  • Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates WaPo

  Cheers. DN (talk) 20:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Well, that's not really what this thread entitled 'Oaks Town Hall' is about. Perhaps start a new one with your suggested text. Riposte97 (talk) 21:03, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Why start yet another thread? Seems like an additional time sink. DN (talk) 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

• Support - sorry, I missed this on the talk page. Now extensive and increasing sourcing on the topic. Blythwood (talk) 17:42, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Seems like the Harris campaign and news media have moved from age and health concerns to fascism. Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns? Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 19:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Seems there was a YouGov poll and pieces in Time magazine and the New Yorker, recently...

  "As the calls grow for Donald Trump to release his medical records, Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris called out her opponent once more during a rally in Houston, Texas, on Friday. She pointed towards the legal battle of Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton and other Texas right wing leaders to access the private medical records of patients who seek out-of-state abortions." Time 10-27-24

  "Over half of Americans, 56 percent, said they believe that Trump’s age and health would impact his ability to serve as commander-in-chief at least a little bit, according to another YouGov poll conducted earlier this month.

  Over one-third, 36 percent, said the former president will be “severely” undercut by his age and health. Another one-third, 33 percent, said those factors will not impact the Republican nominee.

  Inversely, 62 percent of Americans said Harris’s health and age will not affect her work in the White House if she is elected president, according to the survey." The Hill 10-26-24

  "couple of weeks ago, Donald Trump turned in one of his strangest performances in a campaign with no shortage of them—part of a series of oddities that may or may not constitute an October surprise but has certainly made for a surprising October. 'Who the hell wants to hear questions?' he hollered at a town hall in Pennsylvania, after two attendees had suffered medical emergencies. Then he wandered the stage for nearly forty minutes, swaying to music from his playlist—'Ave Maria,' 'Y.M.C.A.,' 'Hallelujah.'" The New Yorker 10-27-24

  "An increasing number of Americans say Donald Trump is too old to be president — but not as many as when President Joe Biden faced similar concerns about his age over the summer.

  A new poll from YouGov found that 44 percent said Trump, at age 78, is too old to lead the executive branch. That figure is up from 35 percent who said the same in a similar February survey." The Independent 10-27-24

  Cheers. DN (talk) 05:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Respectfully, there is no way this is going to get consensus here. If you feel really strongly, maybe start an RfC. That would probably be the most appropriate way to displace the existing RfCs. Riposte97 (talk) 07:44, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I was replying to Bob K3416's recent request..."Do you have any new links that came out this week for age and health concerns?"

  Your declarative statement may be a bit out of place in this context, and brings up what appears to be an inconsistency.

  [25] As you also stated in your recent removal of cited content that is months old (clarify - irl - not the article itself)... "This is still being discussed on the talk page"

  What are the means by which to reconcile "this is still being discussed", at the same time as, "there is no way this is going to get consensus here"?

  Cheers. DN (talk) 08:46, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for your response with the links.

  Regarding the rest of your message, the logic isn't clear. Various messages here are evidence that it is still being discussed and the point that you are trying to make with your sentence, "What is the means..." is unclear. For one thing, note that you are comparing an edit summary on the article page with a message on this talk page. Seems like apples and oranges. Bob K31416 (talk) 13:28, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  Darknipples has now edited their comment, although the argument isn't any more compelling imo. Riposte97 (talk) 20:24, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  I was about to add (Btw I corrected my grammar slip) Reverting under the auspices of "it's under discussion", gives the appearance of contradiction to the recent declaration that "there is no way to achieve consensus"

  Granted, I wouldn't completely disagree with Riposte97's removal of some of the context, but the rest seems like it could be DUE. (below)

  • Trump, if he served his full second term, would become the oldest President of the United States ever. Since his emergence as a politician, Trump has provided less information about his health than is normal for presidential candidates.

  A partial revert leaving this portion would seem fine. DN (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

  The second sentence wasn't in the given source. The insinuation of being in poor health since becoming a politician is contradicted by the fact that he served 4 years as president without any apparent chronic health problem or physical weakness, and he is currently vigorously campaigning for president. Be careful of age discrimination where healthy people are presumed weak and unhealthy because they are old. If you were elderly, healthy and strong, I don't think you would like people insinuating that you were unhealthy and weak because you were chronologically old. Be well. Bob K31416 (talk) 08:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  "The second sentence wasn't in the given source."

  Good catch, I pulled it from the edit that was reverted so maybe the citation might have been placed further in.

  As far as "insinuating he is in poor health", that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal was for reports regarding public concern for his age and health, that does not involve speculation or "insinuate" anything specific as to violate MEDRS.

  • "The age of presidential candidates has been a key issue for voters this year. A Washington Post-ABC News-Ipsos poll, conducted before last week’s Republican convention, found that 60 percent of Americans said Trump is too old for another term as president, including 82 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of independents and 29 percent of Republicans."

  DN (talk) 09:55, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

  His age is already in the article. Riposte97 (talk) 04:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

  Water is wet. DN (talk) 05:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

• Yes. There is overwhelming and WP:SUSTAINED coverage of it at this point; the fact that it is speculative (which some people object to above) doesn't matter, since we do cover speculation when it has sufficient coverage and is clearly relevant to the subject. As WP:BLP says, If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it, emphasis mine. For recent coverage, which someone requested above, see eg. ; for older coverage, there's a massive number of sources on Age and health concerns about Donald Trump. --Aquillion (talk) 15:34, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
• Yes. See Public image of Donald Trump#Temperament. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
• I think it's time to close this discussion. Bob K31416 (talk) 03:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  What rationale? Stale? Consensus? We need a rationale or we just let things fall off the page naturally. Of course we've just added another 14 days by merely saying this. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:07, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  There is at least consensus to change Consensus item #39 (last modified July 2021) to allow discussion regarding Trump's mental health or fitness for office even without diagnosis. Biden's cognitive health has been in his article since 9/2023: Special:Diff/1175184377 Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:09, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  Uninvolved close sounds prudent. Cheers. DN (talk) 10:29, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

  I was confusing "close with consensus assessment" with "close to get stuff off the page per consensus 13". Sorry Bob. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:12, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Another reverted edit

@Zaathras My edit was not whitewashing. It clarifies the view of the source, that "research suggests Trump's rhetoric may have caused an increased incidence of hate crimes": a correlation, while not the opinion of the experts quoted in the source that it necessarily involves causation. As concerns the other edit, the "clunky needless wording" is a necessary detail. As it is now, it sounds like its saying that Trump dictated the letter to some secretary or whatnot, without the doctor present. In reality, he dictated it to the doctor, who told him what he couldn't put in it. Anotherperson123 (talk) 22:39, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

@Zaathras Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:14, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I disagree with @Zaathras’ assertion that your edit is whitewashing, but your edit is written in an argumentative matter. The previous statement states that the Trump comments highlighted were widely criticized, a plain true/false statement. Your “this is despite” implies your addition of text is a rebuttal to the general consensus. It is far from neutral and needs improvement. There should be more discussion on whether Trump’s implied clarification made soon after the comments in question as well. Do NOT edit until there is consensus. Hope this is helpful Slothwizard (talk) 02:04, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

You appear to be confusing two reverts. This diff is the revert I'm talking about in this talk page section: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1251380654&oldid=1251370072. The edit to the section about the allegations of white supremacy (which was also reverted) is discussed in Talk:Donald_Trump#reverted edit. Anotherperson123 (talk) 03:40, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

My bad. Your addition of Bornstein clarifying what he could not add was grammatically incorrect and unnecessary. Your second edit with adding “may” was not whitewashing; unfortunately the citations are not related to the claim, so I am not sure why that sentence is there in the first place. New sources or remove sentence; unless someone clarifies to me about this section. No editing until more discussion is made, would like to hear more opinions. Slothwizard (talk) 03:53, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

(Do we need to salute and shout "Sir, yes, sir!"?, or am I misreading telegram style?) Assuming that the edits in question are this and this one, reverted here, I agree with the revert. Bornstein: clunky & needless. Trump rhetoric verified by the AP and WaPo cites: "suggests" says that the rhetoric may be the cause. If the sentence had read that "research said that Trump's rhetoric caused ...", we'd have to say "may have caused". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:00, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

The detail is a necessary detail, citing what I have said above, but improvements to the grammar of the phrase can be made. Anotherperson123 (talk) 23:58, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I assume the repetition of Bornstein's name is what you are referring to when you say "clunky". If it's the repetition of his name then which of these two do you think work?

"to him while Bornstein said what couldn't be put in it"

"to him while Bornstein informed him what couldn't be put in it" Anotherperson123 (talk) 01:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Thoughts? Anotherperson123 (talk) 16:52, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x @Slothwizard @Zaathras Anotherperson123 (talk) 19:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I haven't changed my mind. None of the proposed changes is an improvement. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any thoughts on the proposed ways to improve the problems with the proposed edit?Anotherperson123 (talk) 02:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

My thoughts are that this happened a month ago and no one really cares. Your suggested edit did not gain consensus so, drop it and move on. Zaathras (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

fascist in lead

is attributed to ten sources in the body, Zenomonoz soibangla (talk) 05:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Fascism is an radical extreme nationalist ideology controlled by a dictator, this does not describe Trump or his ideologies, he is a nationalist, populist, and protectionist republican politician, as mentioned in the lead, “fascist” in this case is being used to describe someone you dislike. Big Mocc (talk) 23:30, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1252842766

I’m actually having trouble finding your statement, that some of the people who used to work for him said he's a fascist, in the body. Riposte97 (talk) 05:23, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Milley, Mattis and Kelly. I can add those. soibangla (talk) 05:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I think your sentence is too trivial to constitute a mention in the lead. It wouldn't make sense to include mention of positive characterisation by his former colleagues, either. What am I missing? Zenomonoz (talk) 05:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I contend that (now) 13 references to fascist in the body is not trivial, but rather a very significant matter that is worthy of lead inclusion for a man who seeks the presidency. soibangla (talk) 06:26, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I now added them to the body, so there are now 13 attributions, which I believe is adequate for lead inclusion, and the inclusion is not up top.[26][27][28] soibangla (talk) 06:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

WP:LEAD isn't about number of cites. Per current article content on "fascist", it clearly fails inclusion in the lead. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:38, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

please would you cite the specific verbiage of LEAD to which you refer? soibangla (talk) 07:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. Mentioned once in a series (described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist) in 2024 presidential campaign is not enough IMO; populist and authoritarian are also mentioned in Campaign rhetoric and political positions. However, it wasn't just historians and scholars, it was also people ("my generals") who worked for him during his term in office (Defense Secretary Mattis, Chief of Staff Kelly) and Milley, who was handpicked by Trump for Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military job — hardly the kind of people that can be smeared as far-left radical-left lunatics. If that is added to the body, then IMO we should add "fascist" to the lead. I haven't read Woodward's book yet, and I still have to go through the numerous sources that were added recently. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm ultimately against the 'fascist' label being included as it's been a subject of contention and debate for 8 years now. The debate is more nuanced than how many citations we can find with the word being included – which is why we should link to Trumpism where this nuance can be explored in-depth. — Czello ^(music) 07:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

yes, fascist has been discussed for years, and many have been reluctant and resistant to speak the word, but we now have three senior generals who served him speaking the word, yet the word remains buried in 13 references in the body. I am not persuaded that at this point exclusion from the lead would persist in any other person's BLP under similar circumstances. The sentence does not say he is a fascist, but rather that some historians, scholars and generals have characterized him as such, which is consistent with the body. soibangla (talk) 07:41, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Isn't Trump the de facto leader of a neo-fascist party? The main article on the ideology describes it as including "nativism, xenophobia, and anti-immigration sentiment" Dimadick (talk) 07:45, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

We don't describe the GOP as being a neo-fascist party on Wikipedia. There are far-right elements to the party, for sure, but again that's why we can't extrapolate and say the whole party is neo-fascist and that Trump is their leader, therefore he is fascist.

The topic of whether Trumpism is fascist is still hotly debated, hence why a link to the article where that debate takes place is more appropriate. — Czello ^(music) 07:52, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd also reiterate Czello's point that the lead follows the text of the body. Unless something stated in the body, it should be in the lead. Riposte97 (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

waaay down there, the body says "fascist" with 13 references soibangla (talk) 08:13, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Trumpism would not exist without Trump. soibangla (talk) 08:15, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what argument you're making here. — Czello ^(music) 08:17, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I see no cause to deflect to Trumpism when its source is Trump, so it belongs here soibangla (talk) 08:24, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Because the Trumpism article is where we can dedicate more space to the nuance of the discussion. — Czello ^(music) 08:42, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see nuance of discussion there and a short conclusive sentence here as mutually exclusive soibangla (talk) 08:48, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

The article is nuanced discussion from beginning to end. It's pretty solely dedicated to exploring the intricacies of the ideoloy and its leanings. The whole point of having splinter articles is so that we can dedicate more space to exploring these topics more fully without overburdening the parent article – and, in this case, an article that is already much too big. — Czello ^(music) 09:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I would be disinclined at the moment. If we're counting sources, 10 (or 13?) sources out of about 850 is worth maybe about a third of a sentence? I don't think it would be easy to appropriately contextualise that. Relative to the body, we have short paragraph, not entirely about fascism, mentioning it briefly. I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully. Alpha3031 (t • c) 08:56, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems notable according to Steven Levitsky and the NYT..."never before has a presidential nominee — let alone a former president — openly suggested turning the military on American citizens simply because they oppose his candidacy." NYT 10-15-2024. Cheers. DN (talk) 10:27, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

So notable I do not see the word "fascist" there. Slatersteven (talk) 10:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

DN, Do you believe Trump said that as depicted by that excerpt? Bob K31416 (talk) 11:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Bob, SS, I was replying to Alpha's statement - "I see a narrow possibility for adding authoritarian though, assuming the wording is worked out carefully." I have not commented on the fascist label as of yet, so please hold your horses. Cheers. DN (talk) 22:57, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Bob. I have started a couple talk page sections with sources on authoritarian rhetoric. See Talk:Donald Trump#2024 campaign rhetoric "The enemy within" & Talk:Donald Trump 2024 presidential campaign#Rhetoric Section Fails NPOV subsection ("The enemy within" rhetoric). Cheers. DN (talk) 23:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Two minds this is a BLP, but it is an accusation that is out there, but does this take up a significant part of our article? Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

My estimate is that less than 1% of the current article body can be said to address fascism or topics directly adjacent. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with this analysis. As pointed out by @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, it's the content of the article , not number or variety of sources that determine what's in the lead, and the amount of the article that is actually about fascism or fascist-adjacent is low. I think most people on both sides of the aisle understand that this is primarily just a mudslinging pejorative term used in the course of politics. Just10A (talk) 14:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, and that's precisely why it's UNDUE for the lead. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Putting "fascist" in the lead, would be quite problematic. Indeed, attempts to add such a label shortly before the US prez election, doesn't look too good as it's likely to stir up emotions. In other words, the timing stinks. GoodDay (talk) 15:03, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Arguments on DUE vs UNDUE aside, I agree that the stability of the article is concerning, and while these issues are separate, they are in no way mutually exclusive. This is the crux of Wikipedia's "Achilles heel" which puts a huge strain on admin and editors alike during elections. IMO though, it is an important discussion that should be held elsewhere, perhaps at the Village Pump. Cheers. DN (talk) 23:31, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Historians and academics should be removed..... just American Media..... zero peer-reviewed academic journals listed as sources. Moxy🍁 23:43, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

What leads you to believe the two are mutually exclusive? DN (talk) 05:20, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd usually agree, but with the assertions by the former Chief of Staff being the latest, this may be inching towards an actual, genuine descriptor of his actions and beliefs, rater than just a political pejorative. Zaathras (talk) 23:46, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

this is no longer about randos calling people they hate fascists and communists and terrorists and pedophiles and any other perjorative they can imagine. it's about Milley, Mattis and Kelly, top military officers he hired and they served under, in the Oval Office. soibangla (talk) 00:55, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Call me a stuffy academic, but I don't believe "top military officer" is a qualification that is of any use (expert opinion) for distinguishing what is fascism and what is merely other forms of far-right authoritarian populism. Leaving weight concerns aside, the attribution required would be entirely too unwieldy in my opinion. Alpha3031 (t • c) 10:48, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Well everyone knows people who get fired arent bias. Plus its on msnbc, cnn, and others. It must be true. I really had to see if it is true. I voted for the evil orange man. Versus the hyena. 2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B (talk) 03:55, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

According to NPR,Kamala Harris said it,and Historians are debating UnsungHistory (Questions or Concerns?) (See how I messed up) 21:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM and WP:NPA vios. At least. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

@Soibangla Ironic that the very fascism taking root in America, expressed by the fascist sympathizers and enablers here (now echoed in Musk’s tantrum in on Twitler, I meant, Twitter…sorry, typo) IS the only reasonable explanation for excluding well-sourced and documented Trump’s fascism in the lead where it is MORE than WP:NOTABLE. If Trump’s own chief of staff, who was a General no less, says that Trump is the very definition of fascism, then what more do we need? Wikipedia remains broken as MAGA marches on. 2601:282:8980:C0F0:5446:2E0:549A:3FD3 (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Trumps felon status should be added to his intro summary

This is literally done for everyone on Wikipedia except for Trump. This is a wilful hiding of information that is favorable to Trump and hides this important information from his google search summary. Please add, convicted felon to his intro to show an unbiased article. 2600:1700:5240:E50:549D:94AA:51E0:CB3 (talk) 15:13, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

is it? Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

It is in the lead, in the final paragraph. A recent discussion concluded it shouldn't be in the first sentence. — Czello ^(music) 15:15, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

no, per MOS:CRIMINAL. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 10:04, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

^ 2601:280:5D01:D010:ADA6:3506:15FF:D881 (talk) 08:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

yes it should be added plus president 45 and 47 :) 2600:1009:B1C0:E89F:B806:558E:13B5:FD2B (talk) 03:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Please remove any terms referring to Trump as a "felon" or "convicted felon" from the lede and anywhere else throughout this page. Trump is not a "felon" or even a "convicted felon" until the JUDGE that is actually overseeing the case CONVICTS him and SENTENCES him. THAT HASN'T HAPPENED YET. This is how the legal system actually works for those who do not know.

Any publication, news outlet or otherwise, is actually guilty of LIBEL for referring to someone who hasn't been convicted and sentenced BY THE JUDGE as such. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 01:44, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect, per Wikipedia content policy. See WP:TRUMPRCB for elaboration on this point. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:57, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

More specifically, the policy at WP:BLPCRIME addresses this. It says nothing about sentencing. He has been convicted. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:18, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

He has not been convicted. The jury has merely rendered a verdict. The judge can still throw away that verdict.

Trump is not a convicted felon. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 21:46, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

And please refer to WP:SHOUT. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

And even Wikipedia's definition of convict says he has to be sentenced as well:

"A convict is "a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court" Convict - Wikipedia

AND sentenced by a court. AND, not OR. Because a jury cannot "convict" only a JUDGE can. If you want to know why Trump won, this is why. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 21:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself. Please provide reliable sources for your claim that Trump has not been convicted, or refer to WP:NOR. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

This source good? Official Justice dept website

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-609-evidence-conviction 2600:1700:95FB:5120:3CD6:700D:15A0:DF96 (talk) 01:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

No. That source says nothing about Trump. See WP:SYNTH. Looking for reliable sources that say something like, "Trump has been found guilty but not convicted." ―Mandruss ☎ 06:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

"In United States practice, conviction means a finding of guilt (i.e., a jury verdict or finding of fact by the judge) and imposition of sentence."

That says it all. He is not a convict. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:36, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

You're confusing the noun with the verb. A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony. That makes him a felon. The judge hasn't sentenced him yet, therefore he's not a convict, i.e., under sentence for a crime, which is exactly what Convict says. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 00:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I would be ready with updates for the 'Donald Trump convicted felon' part. Donald Trump's New York hush money case has been called off as the court decides how to move forward. The Trump Manhattan Fraud Case brought forth by Alvin Bragg has been stayed. It is indefinitely 'adjourned' as the Trump legal team moves to outright dismiss the case. More sources will follow this continuing development. Donald Trump's hush money sentencing is called off Daily Mail. "The case could be delayed until after Trump exits the White House in four years or be dismissed outright." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 13:24, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The Daily Mail is not a reliable source. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 13:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Here are USA Today and Bloomberg for more sources. There are many more. Trump's Nov. 26 hush money sentencing in NY called off without explanation Bloomberg. "Whether Justice Juan Merchan decides the hush money case should proceed to sentencing, gets delayed for four years or is simply dismissed outright is an open question hanging over the president-elect."

Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing in hush money case on hold as prosecution due to weigh in USA Today. "President-elect Donald Trump's Nov. 26 sentencing date in his New York hush money case is on hold as prosecutors face a Tuesday deadline to advise the judge on how to proceed in light of Trump's election victory." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 14:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

The only thing that might affect "convicted felon" is a successful self-pardon. Per policy, we will look to reliable sources as to whether that means he was never convicted—our personal reasoning is irrelevant, as are (as I understand it) legal sources that don't specifically talk about Trump. Anyway, we are probably at least six months away from even considering a change, so this is more than a little premature. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate it. I would imagine the change will occur in under 9 weeks or before January 21th, 2025, possibly sooner. I guess it's a wait and see. Cheers. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 14:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean pardons can't erase historical events, just the present definition. If he self pardon it should be noted he self pardoned. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:41, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

"A jury found Trump guilty of 34 felony counts, i.e., he was convicted of a felony."

Juries do not convict. Only a judge can do that. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Adding links to the lead

I am seeking a consensus to add these links to the lead:

1. populist, protectionist, and nationalist --> populist, protectionist and nationalist
   • These are specific enough terms that the average Jane probably isn't going to know a lot about.
   • I have wanted to click on these before and couldn't. Why not just link them?
2. building a wall --> building a wall
   • This was a major part of Trump's 2016 rhetoric.
   • There is an article on it.
3. initiated a trade war --> initiated a trade war
   • It's a specific and very important moment in his presidency.
   • There is an article on it.

What do y'all think? Cessaune [talk] 20:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Blanket-oppose new links in the lead, per my opposition to steering readers from the lead to other articles, bypassing the related body content. Lead-to-body links are a potential major improvement over no links in the lead, but that effort has stalled. That said, a trade war with China, not initiated a trade war. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:04, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Support, as these are useful and relevant links to the average reader which don't make the lead too bloated and provide value for those who want to read more about it. I'd also suggest linking "his political positions". If we'd want to take a more restrictive approach to keep the lead clean, we could leave the links to "populist, protectionist, and nationalist" out, as these are links to general articles not directly related to Trump or his actions. However, the argument that we should try to avoid "steering readers from the lead to other articles" seems rather patronizing and not very rational to me. Maxeto0910 (talk) 21:44, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Support - helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per MOS:BUILD. The mentioned links are all important concepts for the article which the general reader will not be familiar with. --Guest2625 (talk) 02:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - We've enough links in the lead. Keep adding more & we'll end up with a WP:SEAOFBLUE situation. GoodDay (talk) 02:47, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

This isn't a good argument, either logically or based on precedent. For starters, "we've enough" isn't argument, just a statement that means nothing without reasoning to back it up. Why do you believe we already have enough?

And do you truly think the slope is that slippery? On this page? What is being proposed will not create any SEAOFBLUE issues, and this page will likely never contain any SEAOFBLUE issues in the lead for any lengthy period of time. Cessaune [talk] 03:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

On this page? Oh yes, the slope can be that slippery. PS - I still oppose your proposal. GoodDay (talk) 15:21, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. See consensus 60, which, incidentally, resulted from the RfC in which you proposed ten other links. Seems to me that we've been heading down the slippery slope ever since because we already have several Wikilinks that violate the consensus (i.e., items that were in the lead at the time of the RfC, e.g., "many false and misleading statements" and others). And, obviously, items that were added later (e.g. felony convictions). Helps the reader further understand the topic of the article per MOS:BUILD — reading the article and not just the lead would help. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:25, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

All you do is essentially referring to an old RfC and arguing that adding more links would violate the consensus reached back then, which is not an argument in itself. We gave valid arguments for why we think that adding further links would be an improvement. Like I already wrote, I think trying to force users to read the article by deliberately not adding links is quite patronizing and not very rational. Maxeto0910 (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, well, that "old RfC" is part of the current consensus, whether you consider it "patronizing and irrational" or not. WP:LEAD says The lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents, not a collection of links to other pages. Nobody is forcing anybody to read anything on WP. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:17, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I know that this is the current consensus, and Cessaune and I are challenging it, arguing that adding the proposed links would be an improvement. So far, there has not been a single argument against including the proposed links; simply noting that adding further links would violate the current consensus is a mere observation, and citing this as a reason against the proposal is circular reasoning. Maxeto0910 (talk) 15:39, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

1) I would tend to disagree that the RfC precluded the addition of new links. But let's assume it does. People such as yourself should've been jumping over themselves to revert. If people didn't/don't care to, then it couldn't have been all that important, or—my preferred theory—editors recognize the utility and don't see a problem with it. If, according to you, the outcome of the RfC has been effectively ignored by a lot of different people (including YOU, the author of a tenth of the text on this page and a quarter of the edits—someone who must've been very aware of this) that means... what exactly? Help me out here, because I'm genuinely confused.

2) If the consensus suggests that we are only allowed to add those links, I'm challenging the consensus directly here. So the outcome of the RfC is irrelevant.

3) Do you have an actual argument against adding the links? Cessaune [talk] 17:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

As to process, we have usually required significant new argument(s) or a significant change in the external situation to revisit an existing consensus. Otherwise, it's a simple roll of the dice that depends on who happens to show up; we could reverse the existing consensus only to have it restored in a few months after a change in the editor mix, back and forth indefinitely (make that make sense). Otherwise, it's a settled issue and time-limited volunteers have better ways to contribute than putting the same ingredients through the same machinery to see if we get a different product. It is not constructive to allow repeated bites at the same apple, and consensuses don't require periodic "refresh". Unless you meet one of those criteria for revisitation, you and Cessaune challenging the existing consensus is no different from you and Cessaune having opposed it and ended up on the losing side. Do you meet either of them? (In this case, there doesn't appear to be any "external situation" [external to Wikipedia] that could change, significantly or otherwise. So that leaves significant new argument(s).)

By the by, the above reasoning is supported at WP:CCC (policy) in language about as strong as language ever gets in Wikipedia PAGs outside of WP:BLP: "Editors may propose a change to current consensus, especially to raise previously unconsidered arguments or circumstances." My emphasis. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:13, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

I would say that the Abraham Accords RfC is where I stopped agreeing with this kind of philosophy. There were random, relatively frequent discussions all the time as to whether the Abraham Accords were DUE in the article, and all of them ended in 'consensus against' for literal YEARS. Until one of them didn't. I was very certain that an RfC wasn't warranted, and when one happened, I was somewhat certain that the outcome was going to come out as no consensus or consensus against. Yet here we are. This is a very similar situation.

What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? Cessaune [talk] 20:33, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Until one of them didn't. Did that one consider significant new arguments? I don't know much about the situation; had there been a significant change in the external situation that increased the DUEness? If either is true, that revisitation was warranted under this "philosophy". If neither is true, the consensus change was solely due to a change in editor mix, which is precisely what we seek to avoid.

What if somebody comes along who disagrees with the current Abraham Accords consensus? Would you support yet another revisitation, actively countering "AGAIN??" complaints, or do you assert "settled issue" when the current consensus is to your liking? Logically, those are the only two options if you reject this "philosophy".

What if I were to suggest that the want to lead readers to information trumps the want to steer readers to the body? I was hoping to avoid this. If you were to suggest that to me, I would respond that you should pick up the ball you dropped in April and get us moving on lead-to-body links again. They would serve both goals, leading readers to information while steering them to the body, and are the ultimate solution to this perennial problem.

All of your three proposed items should be supported in this article's body—else it's a bright red flag that the lead does not properly summarize the body—so lead-to-body links could be used for those items. The link might need to be structured differently in some cases; for example the current sandboxing includes: "During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, isolationist, and nationalist." If we think links to Populist, Protectionist, and Nationalist are warranted, they could and should be provided inline in the body prose.

Thus, lead-to-body links would both encourage and facilitate what are already widely-supported best practices.

Too often forgotten or dismissed: The level of detail in this article's body will meet the needs and desires of many readers, who are not served by facilitating, even encouraging them to bypass our body. Steer readers to the body first, then let them decide whether to drill deeper. Some will and others won't, and everybody will be well-served and happy.

Even if they choose not to read the body content, it's usually only one more click to reach the relevant other article. That effort may be compared to the effort of searching this massive table of contents for the body content elaborating on (and supporting) something you read in the lead. You think that's easy? Pretend you're new to the article and its ToC, forget everything you know about them, and try it for a few cases (no cherry picking). I think you'll find it's much harder than clicking a link in a hatnote at the top of a section you were just directed to. This equation may be different in shorter articles, which is why lead-to-body links should be nothing more than a local option; but they are sorely needed at at least one article—this one—and very likely others.

We offer a hierarchy of detail—lead→body→other articles—and lead-to-body links merely make it as accessible as possible—all of it, not just the first, third, and subsequent levels of detail. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

1) I actually tried to resume working on lead-to-body links, but I kept getting shut down by more experienced template editors and I still don't know how to solve the issue of switching text colors from white to black depending on the user's chosen theme.

2) If lead-to-body links aren't an option, then what? Cessaune [talk] 03:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

1a) "Shut down" how and on what basis? 1b) Doesn't sound insurmountable to me.

2) Premature question. As far as I'm concerned, they're an option until our best shot fails. We can cross that bridge if and when we come to it. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll ask again to see if anyone knows how to solve the theme issue. Cessaune [talk] 04:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

@Cessaune: I suggest vagueness, leaving the reason for asking out of it if at all possible. Regrettably, many editors will find reasons why "it can't be done" (or will merely be less helpful than they could be) if they oppose the underlying goal/proposal. And this is not an issue to be resolved in template space, WP:VPT, etc. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Also, for the record, I'd be willing to suggest that pushing this is functionally the same as pushing for more links in the lead, considering that efforts of this sort have been shut down before... Cessaune [talk] 16:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

In my view, what we're proposing now is significantly superior to what has been shut down before (that's a whole other discussion). We've had more experience articulating the argument, so we do it better now. We've seen some of the major opposition arguments, so we can counter them before they're made. And it's had time to attract a larger support base, including Khajidha below. So I wouldn't let the past predict the future in this case. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by "functionally the same". ―Mandruss ☎ 21:09, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose any and all links in lead. Full stop. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:08, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Clarification, "links" here refers to links to other articles. I still think the experiment we had with links to the relevant sections of this article was a good idea. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 12:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Do you have a justification for this? Cessaune [talk] 16:22, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Oppose 132.147.140.229 (talk) 16:38, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Support. This is what wikilinks are for. Arguments that adding links to the lead cause the article to be underdeveloped are quite unconvincing. — Goszei (talk) 16:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose,we have a policy on this,Citations not needed in the lead UnsungHistory (Questions or Concerns?) (See how I messed up) 18:51, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

A citation and a link are completely different things. Cessaune [talk] 19:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral ,then,in that case UnsungHistory (Questions or Concerns?) (See how I messed up) 21:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

something feels missing on lead

By reading the lead, this is an exceptionally different read than other politican pages on wikipedia. It is almost exclusivelly composed of criticism. It feels extremelly strange that there is almost no direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. This is the only phrase that refers to it:

"During the campaign, his political positions were described as populist, protectionist, and nationalist."

It feels so underdeveloped, indirect, as if it was avoiding the topic entirelly. Am I the only one feeling that this is an issue? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 10:58, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

No as the lede is a summery, the body is for more detailed reading into the subject. Slatersteven (talk) 11:31, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

There are dozens if not hundreds of Wikipedia articles about Trump. His single-page, top-level biography is not the place to fully address things like direct analysis of how Trump won the US election. Interested readers need to drill a little deeper than this article—a task made very easy by the in-context links found in the article.

As for almost exclusivelly composed of criticism, read Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. Since your comment has a little specificity, I'm opting not to close this thread per current consensus item 61. Other editors are free to disagree, as always. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:40, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Nothing against the criticism. Also I am asking, not even touched the edit button, so it would be kind of aggressive to shut the topic down immediatelly.

I am not talking about fully adress, with "direct analysis" I still meant a summarization, same as it is done with criticism.

I've read the link you are providing. It states "Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires us to report the bad (negative) with the good (positive), and the neither-bad-nor-good, in rough proportion to what's said in reliable sources, which in this case are largely major news outlets."

I just remember that Trump victory was not an easy prediction, that it was very notable and widely analised by major news outlet. Just that. This is the main reason why the lead sounds weird to me. Like I said there is that phrase that at least refers to why he could have won, but it is very much indirect. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:02, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Ok, but this can't go anywhere unless you propose specific change(s), supported by reliable sources. It's fairly uncommon for someone else to take up your banner just because you brought up the topic. If you ask, "Who supports me on this?", the common response will be "I don't know, that depends on the specifics. I don't support or oppose vague generalities." ―Mandruss ☎ 02:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply. I couldn't edit in the past week.

I think it is a reasonable path to ask for other editors opinions before having a fully formed one myself to propose an edit.

I don't know what the best formulation would be to add a phrase about why and how Trump won his first election. But, like I said, I feel that it is a crucial piece of info currently missing. This feeling is supported by reading reliable sources at the time obviously. The fact that Trump won was arguably the most notable event of his life, full of social insights.

Also note, and that's what I found strange, that there is (as it should) a whole paragraph about that election already. Russian interference is noted, him losing the popular vote is noted, protests are noted, his campaign tone is noted yet... No direct mention or why/how he won.

Again, how do you, and other editors, feel about this? I am not asking anybody to take my banner, feel free to disagree. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:40, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

The Electoral College. He won because of the Electoral College. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:18, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

@Khajidha thank you for coming to the discussion. That is already presented on the paragraph! It is clearly written that he lost the popular vote.

Don't you think that one phrase with analysis of why he won could be helpful? Note that the lead for 2016 United States presidential election is attempting to do something like that, with poor results in my opinion. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:33, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

No. The mechanics of the win is relevant to the election article and the article about his presidency, but not really to this article. Especially not to the lead. This is the article about Trump (the person), the fact that he won the 2016 election is the important part for the intro here. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 14:36, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair enough, is should be more developed on those two pages' leads.

But there already are broader social informations on the election paragraph in this lead. It mentions that Russia interfered to favor Trump, despite not being an action of Trump (the person), and the subsequent protests. How is a single phrase that directly refers to why he won less relevant than those two elements? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 15:47, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to further develop the very strange approach of this lead I want to point out how the very high quality lead of Hitler reads out. I am obviously choosing this lead NOT as a comparison of Hitler and Trump, but to showcase how even for an highly negative biography's lead there should always be room for social analysis.

He was decorated during his service in the German Army in World War I, receiving the Iron Cross. In 1919, he joined the German Workers' Party (DAP), the precursor of the Nazi Party, and in 1921 was appointed leader of the Nazi Party.

This helps readers understand his rise to power. You could argue Trump's lead does the same, but I don't think it does. The references to his business empire don't connect at all to his political activities.

After his early release in 1924, Hitler gained popular support by attacking the Treaty of Versailles and promoting pan-Germanism, antisemitism, and anti-communism with charismatic oratory and Nazi propaganda.

This directly connects his policies and style to popular support.

Domestically, Hitler implemented numerous racist policies and sought to deport or kill German Jews. His first six years in power resulted in rapid economic recovery from the Great Depression, the abrogation of restrictions imposed on Germany after World War I, and the annexation of territories inhabited by millions of ethnic Germans, which initially gave him significant popular support.

This again connects his most negative actions to a complex set of economic and social relationships.

It would be very naive to frame lead writing as positive vs negative. The Trump's lead is currently avoiding any high quality summarization, shielding itself behind a fact checked style. I understand the difficulty of improving it, since this is a BLP and it will be challenged down to the comma. Still, the issue is there. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 16:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@Cinemaandpolitics,Agreed,Wikipedia has to not take sides UnsungHistory (Questions or Concerns?) (See how I messed up) 18:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

this isn't that much about sides, criticism on lead are a good thing (per MOS) and are actually a big improvement on other politician pages. The issue is not having context (also required by MOS lead) to make sense of the info, even for the most notable facts as winning the election. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Replacing the caption of Trump's 1964 yearbook picture

I changed the caption from "Trump at the New York Military Academy, 1964" to read "Trump 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate", with cite, and was reverted with the editsum "Unnecessary and conveys less information". (I've since corrected the caption; New York Military Academy is a name like Whittier High School.) My proposed caption needs to be corrected, too: "Trump's 1964 yearbook picture with medals borrowed from a classmate". It conveys more information than the current one which doesn't say that it's a yearbook picture; the name of the school is unnecessary since you can read it in Early life. Borrowed medals: if Trump had been a member of the military, that would have been called "stolen valor".

Buettner/Craig text

If Donald resented taking orders from a contemporary like Witek, he still craved the tokens of status conferred by the system. Like most cadets, he had earned a few medals for good conduct and being neat and orderly. But his friend, Michael Scadron, had a full dozen by their senior year. On the day yearbook portraits were being taken, Donald showed up in Scadron’s barracks room and asked to borrow his dress jacket with the medals attached, Scandron told us. Donald wore those medals for the portrait, perplexing some of his fellow cadets. “He’s wearing my medals on his uniform,” Scadron later recalled. “I didn’t care one way or the other.”

Vanity Fair published a longer excerpt. It's the earliest example we have for Trump lying about his accomplishments/successes, illusion rather than reality. IMO that's less trivial than the yearbook picture itself. Opinions? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:29, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Either remove the picture or make it clear these are not his medals. Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The detail about the medals (as reprehensible as it is) is not something that belongs in the caption. The whole affair should be covered in the article text.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 22:35, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Better covered in prose, subject to DUE as always. I'm not convinced it clears the bar, but that's really a separate issue that could be handled separately for the sake of organization. I'm confident you don't need to be informed that as reprehensible as it is is irrelevant for our purposes; moral judgments are never a factor. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Yep, I was just trying to make it plain that I am not trying to hide unflattering facts.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 00:49, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

We should never need to explain ourselves like that, in my book. It's essentially apologizing for being a good editor. If someone suspects you of trying to hide unflattering facts, that's on them. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:05, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

How about the caption "Trump's 1964 yearbook picture"? I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:13, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the name of the boarding school is more important than the fact that it's a yearbook picture. Omit the almost-obvious. Sure, he could've had the portrait made just so he could carry it in his wallet and gaze upon it from time to time, but that's not going to be a reader's first guess. And for the uninitiated it sounds as though Trump was a cadet at an actual military academy. The adjacent prose says NYMA is "a private boarding school". We're not catering to readers who just look at the pretty pictures and read their captions. And the only "1964" currently in the prose is about entering Fordham. So your proposal would be confusing, requiring readers to know that Fordham students don't wear uniforms. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Violation of WP:NPOV, and not relevant to what is being discussed. Eg224 (talk) 19:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy

@Zaathras you appear to have violated the contentious topics procedure by reverting the restoration of longstanding content. Please self-revert immediately.

I note that the New York Military Academy uses a definite article when referring to itself. Riposte97 (talk) 21:58, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It seems you have invented a designation that appears nowhere in WP:CTOP, and even if it did, it would not apply to simple grammatical tweaks. Zaathras (talk) 22:05, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It's a 1RR violation. The content is clearly disputed, so it should be dealt with on the talk page. Again, please self revert while we discuss it here. Riposte97 (talk) 23:08, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

One revert is not a 1RR violation. Please do not bandy about terms which you appear to be unfamiliar with. Zaathras (talk) 22:51, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Take it to AN. DN (talk) 22:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I've now reverted the text to the longstanding version which wasn't the one I edited yesterday — another editor edited part of the sentence on October 16, so IMO 1RR wouldn't apply. The wording of the sentence is a separate issue from the caption. As for the school using the definite article when referring to itself, they do and they don't. (And does it matter? See Trump University.) Here are three examples for the school referring to itself and another private school the correct way: "At NYMA, we’re dedicated to preparing you for the future"; "At NYMA, our partnership with Canterbury Brook Academy (CBA) significantly enriches students’ holistic development"; "The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character". And an example of the incorrect way: "The mission of the New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character". (Not a typo, same sentence, once with "the" and once without.) Names of colleges, universities, and other schools. Use "the" if the school’s title includes "of" or "for" (University of Maryland, Perkins School for the Blind). Don't use "the" if the school is named for a person or place (Baylor University, Harvard University).

• Longstanding content: At age 13, he entered the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school.
• Proposed wording: At age 13, his father sent him to New York Military Academy, a private boarding school.

Reason: Trump didn't enter of his own volition, his parents entered him at NYMA. Kranish/Fisher: "Near the end of seventh grade, Fred discovered Donald’s knives and was infuriated to learn about his trips into the city. He decided his son’s behavior warranted a radical change. In the months before eighth grade, Fred Trump enrolled Donald at the New York Military Academy, a boarding school 70 miles from Jamaica Estates." Gwenda Blair: "In 1959, when he was thirteen, Donald Trump went off to New York Military Academy (NYMA) ... an institution that in the fall of 1959 resembled a child's toy soldier set". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:53, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Re the "the", can we agree that site-wide consistency as to the NYMA case is a worthy goal? If so, we need a single venue to discuss and decide the issue, which can then be easily found and referenced by editors of other articles containing references to NYMA. I would suggest the NYMA article, which currently omits the "the". In other words, any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. The discussion here should be: "The NYMA article omits the 'the'. End."

This is one of the very few situations where a different article should influence this one. Can I articulate the difference? Probably not. But it would be hard to assert "other stuff exists" about this; the "the" should be universally present or universally omitted for NYMA. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:32, 30 October 2024 (UTC) Edited 23:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Although this is a minor point, the school itself uses 'the' when referring to itself using its full name, but omits the 'the' when using the acronym NYMA. Sources > Wikipedia imo. See: https://www.nyma.org Riposte97 (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

any discussion of guidelines and other factors should occur there, not here. Anyway, this article does not currently use the NYMA acronym. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:40, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Not true. The school also doesn't use "the" when referring to itself by the full name, e.g., NYMA website, "Leadership training" section: "The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop our cadets in mind, body, and character"; NYMA website/about: "New York Military Academy (NYMA) was founded by Colonel Charles Jefferson Wright", "The mission of New York Military Academy is to develop the cadets in mind, body, and character". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 12:42, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Would anyone really expect a 13-year-old to have entered any school of their own volition? My opinion was neither sought nor desired when it came time for me to begin high school. I just can't see anyone interpreting the longstanding version the way you are worried about. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The classmate he borrowed the medals from did, according to Buettner/Craig. I did, too, come to think of it (at 15, and not military school, though:). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:52, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you extrapolating overall reader behavior from a sample size of 2? ―Mandruss ☎ 07:15, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes! I'm considering a career change — Rasmussen pollster. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:11, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Where is the DUE case for "his father sent him to"? How much RS has discussed this issue? Key word: discussed, which does not mean merely saying that his father sent him. To the author of the source, that could be an arbitrary alternative to "he entered", a matter of writing style. Beware of WP:OR and avoid reading between the lines in sources.

I don't think two or three good sources would do it for me. Even ignoring the article bloat. Maybe four good sources. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:55, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

How about removing kindergarten and just mentioning that he attended school X through grade 7 and school Y from grade 8 to 12? Current version:

He grew up with older siblings Maryanne, Fred Jr., and Elizabeth and younger brother Robert in the Jamaica Estates neighborhood of Queens, and attended the private Kew-Forest School from kindergarten through seventh grade. At age 13, he entered the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school.

Proposed version:

He grew up with older siblings Maryanne, Fred Jr., and Elizabeth and younger brother Robert in the Jamaica Estates neighborhood of Queens. He attended the private Kew-Forest School through seventh grade and New York Military Academy, a private boarding school, from eighth through twelfth grade.

This may be my bias talking, but "entered the New York Military Academy" has just a whiff of achievement, such as being admitted to West Point. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:07, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

I can't detect any such sense of achievement. Entering a school seems to me to be completely equvalent to "began attending". I also don't see it as distinguishing the manner of entry (personal choice, parental choice, or simply iving in the district).--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 16:39, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but your interpretation is irrelevant here, bias talking or otherwise. You are going beyond "editorial judgment" in my opinion. Show me the requested DUE case if you want my support. At this moment, I'd be happy with merely removing the "the" per above. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:44, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

For at least seven years, the sentence read (bolding added by me): At age 13, he was enrolled at the New York Military Academy, a private boarding school,[6] and in 1964, he enrolled at Fordham University. This edit on March 15, 2024, changed it with the editsum "ce". IMO, it changed the meaning. I didn’t notice it among all the other edits at the time. I only noticed it now because I’m reading Buettner/Craig’s "Lucky Loser". OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. It’s a tad annoying when every source I found says "he was sent" or similar wording, and there doesn’t seem to be a single source for "he entered" (annoying enough for me to take my mind off next Tuesday and spend half an hour tracking the sentence on the Wayback Machine).

• Kranish/Fisher: "When Donald was 13, his father abruptly sent him to a military boarding school, where instructors struck him if he misbehaved and the requirements included daily inspections and strict ­curfews. 'He was essentially banished from the family home,' said his biographer, Michael D’Antonio."
• Buettner/Craig, pg. 63: "But Fred had reached his limit with Donald. He sent him to a boarding school, a military academy north of the city."
• PBD: "His family eventually sent him to military school in upstate New York".
• NYT: "Mr. Trump said his experience at the New York Military Academy, an expensive prep school where his parents had sent him to correct poor behavior, gave him 'more training militarily than a lot of the guys that go into the military'."
• WaPo: "Trump spent five years at the military academy, starting in the fall of 1959, after his father — having concluded that his son, then in the seventh grade, needed a more discipline-focused setting — removed him from his Queens private school and sent him Upstate to NYMA." Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:42, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

OR? Sure, if reading RS and forming an opinion is the definition of OR. 'Twas OR before you presented this DUE case. Now it isn't. I must be from Missouri. Ok, you have my support for "his father sent him to". And remove that damned "the" in the prose, per above, pending a change at New York Military Academy. Please and thank you. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:25, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Making sure this isn't archived — someone started another discussion (Inclusion of release of grades). Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:02, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Sources

Please re-write the entire first section.

I have read more than 10,000 biographical articles in Wikipedia, and I haven't seen a single article which is written in a more biased, and pessimistic tone than Donald Trump. Please be professional and at least re-write the entire first section again in a more neutral tone. The entire world is reading this article and it must be written professionally. Thank you. Nir007H (talk) 10:05, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Its important to mention these things, but the bias on both this page and the election page as well as his campaign page, is widespread. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 10:19, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

How? Slatersteven (talk) 10:22, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Because all of them have paragraphs upon paragraphs regarding many allegations, many of which Trump himself has denied. They also excessively refer him to Fascism, and provide far-left and often non-reliable sources for these. Kamala Harris and Joe Biden have their fair bit of criticism, but this is rarely mentioned on their pages and when it is, its usually reverted or downplayed due to 'non reliable sourcing'. Keeping in mind Fox and the like should be considered as reliable as CNN and the like. Its overall quite biased. Dont get me wrong, these things need to be mentioned, but their absolutely has to be more weighting as to criticism of Trump and his Democrat opponents. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 10:28, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Also to quickly add to this, it needs to be mentioned more that Trump has denied Project 2025. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 10:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:MANDY. The sources are what we go with, not Trump's own claims. — Czello ^(music) 10:39, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Left sources that go against what the topic at hand himself said? Wikipedia can be interesting sometimes. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 11:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, WP:MANDY and WP:PRIMARY are why we prioritise independent sources. — Czello ^(music) 13:15, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Completely agree with these criticisms of the article. Please see my added topic which includes three edit requests, for some proposed changes to the opening section. Neutral Editor 645 (talk) 10:34, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that based on current consensus number 61, that you should review this link: Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. (Not 100% sure though, so I will leave this thread open.) --Super Goku V (talk) 10:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. I hate Trump and am sad that he won, but this lead is just too much. It discredits Wikipedia's encyclopedic tone for the regular user. At least add a few positive things. Lucafrehley (talk) 10:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Find some. We can't include things that don't exist.--User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 11:48, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Jesus you are literally a wikipedia editor. Your bias is what we do not need on wikipedia.

For example we could add things like:

The First Step Act, signed in 2018, aimed to reform the federal prison system by reducing sentences for non-violent offenders, increasing funding for rehabilitation programs, and reducing the three-strike rule’s penalty.

the VA MISSION Act, allowing veterans more access to private healthcare and aimed at improving the VA's efficiency and accountability.

Operation Warp Speed facilitated the rapid development, manufacturing, and distribution of COVID-19 vaccines, which reached the public in record time.

just to name a few DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 11:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

As I pointed out in my own topic, this is not about adding "positive things". Trump won an election in 2016 which was widely reported from reliable sources as a complete surprise. Those reliable sources tried to understand why people voted for him. The lead has no direct mention of why he won. While having mention of Russian interference and protests.

This has nothing to do with things being positive or negative, there is a lack of social analysis that doesn't help to present a complex BLP. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 15:44, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree. I have never seen an article of this scale be so obviously biased and favored against its subject. This bias becomes even more distinguishable when you compare it to other articles such as Joe Biden, who has been heavily criticized even by people on the left. For example, he faced a ton of criticism for the withdrawal from Afganistan (CNN, MSNBC, MSNBC again, CBS, NPR, Associative Press, NYT, etc), yet that is nowhere to be found in the lead. Meanwhile, Trump's lead section will mention every bad thing he did, as well as the opinions of his non-supporters. The opinions of those who support him are not even mentioned. It just comes across as completely lacking integrity. (Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 17:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I would not define it as "biased", those info could be considered notable. But it is surelly tone deaf in trying to give social context to Trump success. Poor writing that actually doesn't even give a change to complex social criticism, for which there are many reliable reportings even from the same major US newspapers used in the current "fact checked" style. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 18:38, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Nobody rewrites entire first sections (leads). That isn't how Wikipedia works, and Trump would be dead long before we reached a consensus on such a rewrite. See Talk:Donald Trump/Response to claims of bias. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

yea, I agree on that, a substantial rewrite is not happening soon. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 18:02, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

This entire article needs re-written, but the introduction is a total disaster. Even aside from the partisan hackery, it is a hodgepodge of incoherent sentences that look like (and probably were) added disjointedly as time went on with little to no continuity with each other. Most of them are factoids that are irrelevant to a high altitude summary of the man's life and achievements. Embarrassing. The Pittsburgher (talk) 15:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Specific suggestions, please. It's nigh impossible to rewrite an entire lead section to everyone's liking. Simple saying 'rewrite the entire lead' isn't going to get us anywhere. Cessaune [talk] 15:40, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

The idea that a mythical "unbiased" lead section could exist that literally every Wikipedia would agree upon for such a polarizing political figure is absurd and preposterous. People act like shouting "bias"! is some kind of objective statement when it is essentially entirely subjective opinion. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:50, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Nir007H: There's only one way to get a re-write. You gotta put forward a proposal & see if it will get a consensus. GoodDay (talk) 03:59, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I may be drawn and quartered for speaking this heresy. I've long felt Wikipedia content policies are sufficiently vague, complex, nuanced, and self-contradictory as to be extremely vulnerable to the biases that we all have (anybody who claims to be without bias is either lying or completely lacking in self-awareness). That the policies prevent the effects of those biases is largely an illusion and a mass self-delusion. I've advocated massive overhaul of policy to simplify and streamline, and the silence has been deafening. Wikipedia's system of self-selected self-governance simply lacks the capacity for such massive change, and the Wikimedia Foundation will never intervene while Wikipedia is the most popular free encyclopedia on the web.

If this article has been dominated by anti-Trump editors, the solution is more pro-Trump editors, people who are prepared to take the time to learn the policies and how to use them. WP:CONSENSUS is everything at Wikipedia. I've been saying this for many years and it seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia encyclopedia (a lazy intellectual cop-out)—merely following their leader's example. I say quit whining whining, put on your big boy pants, and do something that might have some effect. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:51, 8 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after replies 23:26, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

"It seems to me a large majority of pro-Trumpers lack the energy for anything but arm-waving rants about fake news and the resulting fake encyclopedia—merely following their leader's example." An astute observation that actually reveals the root of the problem: That's all they do because that's all there is to back up their POV. The lead is a dry restatement of dull facts, it only appears unflattering because the man's behavior has been consistently and objectively unflattering. Largely Legible Layman (talk) 16:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I’d say it’s more to do with the polarisation of the American media, and one end/side being deprecated on Wikipedia. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Comment I generally stay far away from Trump related articles because of my extremely strong prejudices against the man. But as much as it pains me to say this, I think the lead is problematic. It reads like it was written by the DNC. Most of what is in there belongs in the article. But not all of it belongs in the lead. Clearly I'm not the only one with these concerns as there are multiple editors, in multiple threads on this page raising similar concerns. If the article wasn't linked on the main page right now, I'd seriously consider slapping an NPOV tag on it. Tone matters. The lead reads like an indictment. The laundry list of everything the man has ever been accused of is UNDUE and should be condensed into more general statement noting his controversial history, statements, legal issues etc. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:08, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

the problem is not the list of "negative" actions, which could maybe be condensed just to achieve a better lenght, the problem is that the lead completelly fails to convey why Trump is popular, how he got to power etc etc. It sounds tone deaf and devoided of social analysis. Look at the Hitler lead (not a comparison between individuals) and you can see how it can be done properly. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:27, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that's a very good analysis. -Ad Orientem (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I suspect that the lead as it is in part resulted from having too many cooks in the kitchen. Is there one person who can draft a lead for Trump based on the structure of Hitler's lead for others to review? – Muboshgu (talk) 15:54, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The current structure seems decent to me for the time being, @Goszei is pointing out a good and clear path forward regarding content that should be added. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 21:49, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

It’d be so good if this article were actually educational Kowal2701 (talk) 21:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree that this is the best step forward. Kowal2701 (talk) 16:01, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Support Castlemore7 (talk) 14:38, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I can imagine you counting the biographical articles you read like pushups "9,998..9,999...10,000! Now I can finally say I have read 10,000 of those! 68.57.163.100 (talk) 04:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I think whatever has been done in the last few days to the lead has made it a lot better. And for those complaining about how stuff is brief, that’s because there’s a lot of stuff to cover without making the lead too long, especially now in his second term there will be more stuff happening. Still, the flow is much improved even if there could be a few tweaks I think it’s heading in the right direction Eg224 (talk) 04:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

lead is too long

lead is too long as it contains more than 4 para. Can we make it short ? Astropulse (talk) 14:04, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

this is by editorial design. the reality is that when everything is important, nothing is important. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

there are lot of other presidents and prominent article - where we have managed to put most important things in 4 para. 4 para is more than enough and everything else should be in body Astropulse (talk) 14:13, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. waving arms and saying 'its too long, make it shorter' is a useless comment. ValarianB (talk) 14:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I cut the last para. someone reverted it. Lets start by removing it Astropulse (talk) 15:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Why that? Why remove that he has won the election and is president elect? How does that accomplish anything? Wehwalt (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@ValarianB Reporting a problem and discussing it on the talk page is far from "useless". Please WP:Assume good faith. If you want another editor to elaborate, a question could be asked without dismissing their contribution as useless. For example, "if you've a suggestion for something to cut then do so. Which part(s) of the lead in particular do you think should be trimmed?" That would be a more constructive rather than dismissive contribution. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 15:18, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Valarian did not say that discussing the problem is "useless". They said that not being specific is "useless". This lead clearly needs to be cut severely, and we need specific proposals for how to do it. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

You agree that the lead is too long. So saying 'its too long, make it shorter' was a correct analysis of the situation and the start of a discussion, not a "useless" comment. Other editors were actively adding to the bloated lead instead of doing what Astropulse did and attempting to discuss the problem on the talk page. Again, if another editor wants an editor to elaborate, that can be requested in a constructive rather than dismissive way. Calling other editors' comments "useless" without reason is not WP:Civil. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 22:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree the lead is overly long. Already 7 paragraphs and he hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term yet. Checking other US presidents' articles, they generally have 4, at a push 5, paragraphs. Overloading the lead for Trump's article is an example of WP:Recentism. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 15:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I have attempted a bold restructuring of the lead, including some additions and removals of information, in these edits: Special:Diff/1255792425/1255793186. I understand that some elements of it may conflict with prior consensus, but as editors point out above this lead is a severe example of recentism. A lot more material is sure to come with his second term in office, which will expand the lead even further, so we should try to cut it down along the general lines of my edit. What do other editors think? — Goszei (talk) 18:21, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the lead is disgracefully bloated. Compare it to our article for Joe Biden, which has a neat and concise lead of four paragraphs. What makes Trump any different? WP:Summary style seems to have been chucked out the window. ~ HAL333 (VOTE!) 18:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

With you on summary style, and you're far from the first person to say that (although usually applied to the body). Stick around and help make it so! ―Mandruss ☎ 18:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

It feels already much better than before. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 22:31, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

It seems an attempt was made to shorten the lead and the template was removed, then the content was restored to bloat the lead again but the template was not restored.

The documentation of Template:Lead too long speaks of a 250 to 400 word standard. The lead section of this article is currently over 650 words! Trying to fix the problem of too many paragraphs by combining the excess paragraphs into gigantic paragraphs doesn't address the issue. Trump still hasn't even been inaugurated for his second term but the lead is substantially longer than other presidents. By my count, Trump's lead currently contains almost 1,000 more characters than FDR's lead, a man who was in office for 12 YEARS and is one of the most influential presidents in American history! This is purely recentism, we need to apply the WP:20YEARTEST.

• For a start, the lead mentions "After a series of business failures in the late 1990s ... He and his [...] six business bankruptcies." Are these separate events, or were some the bankruptcies during the 1990s? Couldn't these lines be combined in some way? NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 23:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

There are two sentences in the lead in particular which are not "protected" by standing consensus, and which editors have expressed an interest in cutting in various threads on this talk page:

• "He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies."
• "The Mueller investigation later determined that Russia interfered in the 2016 election to help Trump."

There is also room for trimming in other areas (why say "racially charged" when it is just a soft euphemism for "racist", for instance), though I have seen some editors reverting these efforts for unknown reasons. — Goszei (talk) 00:17, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree that those two are the two phrases that feels most out of place on lead. But to remove them there is surelly a need for two separates RfC. I also have a feeling the Russian interference will be preserved by an RfC, but it is interesting to see motivations for it. I guess that for american politics that is a major fact.

I also agree on the racist part. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:45, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

To be even more clear, I find the paragraph about his presidency (4th) and about his trials and attempt to overturn (5th) satysfying.

The issues are on second paragraph (not making a clear connection between his business empire and his shift to politic, or a misleading connection with his business legal actions) and on third paragraph (being extremelly vague and indirect to why he won) Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:56, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. The lead's scope in general still hasn't adjusted to the election results.

Consensus on this talk page seems to be that he was a failed, nepotistic businessman turned reality TV host, who won the 2016 election by fluke and Russian hacking. Then he became a failed insurrectionist in 2020 and found guilty of various crimes, generally an unelectable madman. Whether that's a right or wrong summary, the lead should adjust to the new development that he was elected for a second term as president. Most prior events become less leadworthy in the face of this expanding scope.

@Goszei Has there been a specific reason in edit summaries as to why we need repetition of the business failures in the second paragraph? NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 11:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

“First convicted felon as president” placement.

The Felony thing in like the opening sentence or second sentence I think is excessive, where it was before was next to the stuff about Stormy Daniel’s/Insirrection/etc. that is more logical, but someone reverted it and added it back to the first part. It’s one of those things where we gotta figure out how to level the weight, there’s a whole part in the lead right now addressing all the stuff so I think that’s fine but I would like to hear some unbiased consensus. Eg224 (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Editors can argue DUE or UNDUE all day long, but the policy is sufficiently vague that, in reality, it comes down to how much one hates/loves Trump and how much they let that affect their Wikipedia editing. I hate Trump immensely (making me just a terrible person, probably possessed by demons) but I don't let it affect my editing. And this just feels like POV-pushing that high in the lead. I'm happy with it where it is at this moment, in what is currently the fourth paragraph of the lead. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it’s perfect. definitely feels biased to have it in the opening, the first president without prior experience isn’t as much so. I think that’s alright since it compares him to past Presidents in the next part too, and is talking about being the 45th/47th president Eg224 (talk) 22:50, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are making a mistake. He can not be labeled a "convicted felon" as long as his appeals processes are unconcluded. The fact that courts have granted the appeals indicates that they believe he has a chance of having the rulings reversed. 99.33.126.209 (talk) 05:27, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are mistaken. WP:BLPCRIME: "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law." NOT: "A living person accused of a crime is presumed innocent until convicted by a court of law and all available appeals have been exhausted." ―Mandruss ☎ 06:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Look, the facts are that Trumpty-Dumpty being convicted on felony counts will never be as important as his presidencies. His political career will be the most important thing to impart, not the tax evasion or fraud or whatever the hell it was NY prosecuted him for. Not to say that it isn't important enough to be mentioned in like the fourth paragraph, but his political career is the most important thing to note. Hate to get all Orwell on ya'll, but some animals are more equal than others. BarntToust 02:43, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

A person becomes a convicted felon the instant the conviction is handed down. Sentencing does not matter. Appeals do not matter. The only criterion for "convicted" is the conviction itself. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:36, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

The weight and emphasis given to facts in the lede should reflect that given in the body. Given the weighting currently seen in the body, a high placement is appropriate. If editors want to move it down, they should contest the weighting given in the body. That is the place to evaluate DUE/UNDUE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:20, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Thought experiment, not an actual proposal: (1) Go through the lead and make a list of the discrete topics therein. (2) Find the related body content for each item and count the words therein (i.e., weight), updating your list with those numbers. (3) Sort the list by descending word count. (4) Restructure the lead according to your sorted list.

I think you'll find that your new lead lacks all structure and organization. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:42, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

It's true that the lede serves functions beyond being a weighted summary (e.g. contextualizing the subject, establishing notability) which gives it some structure and organization. I did intend to sidestep the wordcount weighting critique by mentioning emphasis, e.g. whether a topic is given its own heading, how high in the article/section it is, whether it is a summary or example as well as just the importance the article ascribes.

On my broader point, what do you understand as the relationship between the lede and body re; WP:DUE? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't. Frankly I think you're putting too fine a point on it, considering all the other issues going unaddressed, such as article length. We've been discussing that for years without significant progress. We need to get the body into summary style, gutting much of it, and we need more smart guys like you to help with that. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:03, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed that length is a very big issue. I also think if editors want to focus on other issues, such as emphasis, they should do it in a different way.

I'm working on Public image of Donald Trump at the moment before summarizing it in this article, I'll be interested to see how that goes before taking on a meatier section. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:22, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

54. "Scholars and historians rank Trump as one of the worst presidents in U.S. history."

A brief consideration:

The sentence should clarify who these "historians and scholars" are by identifying the institution that represents them collectively or at least their nationality, per WP:WIKIVOICE, WP:GLOBALIZE, and WP:GLOBAL. We might also consider adding a footnote to mention the historians...

Additionally, the sentence should also specify that this is an assessment of the first presidency, rather than the incoming one, per WP:CRYSTALBALL. Pantarch (talk) 11:42, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

This is discussed in the body of the article along with links to additional info. Too much detail for the lead. O3000, Ret. (talk) 11:50, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Better to have many details than inaccurate ones. The sentence make an absolute claim, which is inconsistent with Wikipedia's policies. Whereas, regarding my other point, specifying 'first presidency' requires only two words. Pantarch (talk) 12:02, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. Trump is in a bit of a unique situation (two non-consecutive terms in a period that is contemporary with Wikipedia). I think this sentence in the lede should be rewritten to clarify that the surveys and assessments so far so far were purely based on his first term as president. That of course can be changed again when there's a new ranking that explicitly considers his second term.

Compare also to the Joe Biden article, where it has been generally considered too early to include the survey rankings until the end of his presidency. I don't think leaving them out here completely is the right way to handle it, but at the very least that part of the lede needs clarification.

If that would be too much detail, I would even argue to remove it from the lede altogether for now until the end of his second term instead of keeping the current wording. 2003:CD:EF0D:4800:DD0E:6701:F480:1B8B (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree this is an uncited comment and should be removed , but since it is under strict protection that can not be done by anyone outside of a very small group, so it will remain until someone with this ability decides to do it. Washusama (talk) 06:09, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If we're removing "uncited comments" from the lead, we're deleting the lead. We cite in the body and summarize the body in the lead. See Donald Trump#Scholarly. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:02, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

When his second term starts we can change it to specify that it was his first term being evaluated. Until then, it is blatantly obvious due to the fact that it is the only term he has had. Your assumption that readers are too stupid to understand this is insulting. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 15:26, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

we can change it Am I missing something, or is "After his first term, scholars and historians ranked Trump as one of the worst presidents in American history." sufficiently clear on that point? The first four words were just added the other day, after a discussion which is linked in current consensus item 54, per established process. How could the assessments apply to his second term if they were made after his first term? ―Mandruss ☎ 01:08, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I just think this sentence should just be removed entirely. Master106 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:25, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:I just don't like it applies. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:43, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I just do not think a bunch of biased historians claiming something way too early is that important or too good for a Wikipedia article. I don't even think opinions should be in the lead to begin with. Master106 (talk) 09:30, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Everyone is biased, there's no such thing as an "unbiased" person. You are free to review the statement and source/sources provided and say "they're a bunch of left wing partisan hacks and I don't believe them". That doesn't mean the views of people who study history and review historical evidence shouldn't be here. 331dot (talk) 09:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

​I don't think this aligns with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. WP:Reliable sources does draw a distinction between biased and non-biased sources, and Wikipedia:Verifiability includes types of creators (such as political scientists) as a type of source. With biased sources, certain considerations must be made. This all said, the bias, and potentially its impacts, must be verifiable rather than simply asserted. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:53, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I have no problem with biases and opinions being in Wikipedia pages. They are in Wikipedia pages all the time. From reviews of various media to even awards given to people. I only have a problem when they are in the lead and given authority. Like how it is on this article right now. Master106 (talk) 17:00, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by "given authority", but these are scholarly assessments in very reliable sources, and they carry with them whatever authority that implies. It's a significant fact about him that belongs in the lead. Only someone who is ignorant of his character and actions and believes the whitewashing from unreliable sources would doubt these scholarly assessments. The statement is accurate and properly attributed. It's okay. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me)

Those are your opinions. Master106 (talk) 17:56, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Sentence on lawsuits and bankruptcies in lead

It is natural that a large-scale real estate developer in the industry for decades would face a high number of lawsuits. It is worth mentioning in the body, but not worth mentioning in the lead. In the lead, the apparent purpose of this sentence is to portray Trump as a bad businessman, despite him becoming a billionaire and acquiring some of the most iconic properties in NYC. We already mention his "business failures" in the 1990s and shift to side ventures; I recommend removing the sentence on lawsuits, and then changing "business failures" to "bankruptcies" to be more clear. — Goszei (talk) 17:26, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Source for any other land developer who has faced this number, and kind of lawsuit please? Slatersteven (talk) 17:30, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking into it, according to [29] close to half of the 4,000 suits were related to his casino, most of which were "suits against gamblers who had credit at Trump-connected casinos and failed to pay their debts". Trump was the plaintiff in these (not the defendant), and won most of them according to the data. Another big chunk, larger than those related to his real estate, was personal injury, which is again expected when running a large number of commercial properties. He had about 600 real estate suits over a period of 40 years. — Goszei (talk) 17:41, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Not what I asked, and does not support what you said. Slatersteven (talk) 17:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

His involvement in litigation is a key part of Trump's biography. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

From what I posted above, a lot of the suits just seem like the cost of doing business in a litigious industry for 40 years; our article on it, Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump, acknowledges that Trump won 92% of the suits. We have a lot in the lead about his later legal problems, but we shouldn't generalize that backwards to his business career. He was much better known for his Atlantic City casino bankruptcies than something like Trump University before 2015. — Goszei (talk) 17:52, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Before 2015, Trump wasn't publicly known as "that guy who got sued a lot", but as a fairly successful real estate developer who faced high-profile bankruptcies and later built a brand around his name. This is what we should convey to the reader. — Goszei (talk) 18:08, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

I completelly agree with Goszei here, it's a repetition that is misleading, unnecessary, and, even more important, take up space that could be used to describe how his real estate work connects to his rise to power. Goszei explained it to me in another discussion and is not conveyed properly in the current lead. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 18:29, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

But his dishonesty also helps explain his rise to power. Again we need sources saying this is not unusual, not editors OR. Slatersteven (talk) 18:37, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

You interpreting that sentence as "Trump gained his wealth through dishonesty" is complete POV and exactly what I am referring to when I said the figure alone misleads readers. As I showed above, the reality is more complex (the vast majority of the suits weren't related to any kind of fraud on Trump's part, and he won 92% of them). — Goszei (talk) 19:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. That should definitely go. The whole business part of the lead is full of useless trivia. Riposte97 (talk) 22:47, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

We have a whole page on it: Business career of Donald Trump. It is only appropriate for it to be at least a sentence in the lead of his bio. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:58, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

We should include details on his business career insofar as it explains to readers how Trump became rich ("building and renovating skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses") and became a household name (licensing his name and hosting The Apprentice), which are directly relevant to his rise to political power. Mentioning the number of lawsuits he had is not relevant to this purpose. — Goszei (talk) 01:26, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree this sentence in the lead should be removed. Basil the Bat Lord (talk) 05:47, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

When I talk about an edit, I am implying by default it coming from RS.

I just think that the connection between him building businnes in NY and his rise to power should be made more explicit, in the case that it is supported by RS. Just talking about golf courses and hotel doesn't make it clear enough. And the number of lawsuits further make it more misleading because it seems like he went to politics because he was poor and failing. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Hadn't noticed this discussion — two days after the election, all hell breaking loose in the article and on this talk page. Trump's business failures, including the bankruptcies, are a defining part of his biography and lead-worthy. Since you mentioned casinos and gamblers: it's not a sign of great business acumen when you build a casino next door to your own casino and poach patrons from yourself or when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

when you give credit to patrons so that they gamble with our own money. This is established practice in the gambling industry, anyone who has tried to watch a sporting event recently has been bombarded with 'free bet' ads. The calculation being that most people are losers and getting them in the door is more valuable to the casino/sportsbook than the value of the credit/'free bet'. Regardless, declaring a casino or other business bankrupt isn't that relevant to the article that it should have multiple lines in the lead of an article about a two-term president. We can surely summarise that business failure/bankruptcies content in one line. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 11:47, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

To the uninitiated reader, this sentence suggests that Trump by the time of his first presidential run was a failed businessman who was absolutely drowning in lawsuits. However, a good chunk of Trump's popularity in 2016 came from the widespread view that he was a successful real estate mogul, and an icon of the "glory days" of American capitalism in the 1980s. The truth of course is more nuanced (we have many, many words in the article on questions about his true net worth, for example), and I understand the impulse to hint that his business career wasn't as spotless as people perceived, but this specific fact just misleads the reader. We don't even mention his billionaire status in the lead, or have a few words about his changing political affiliations, both of which are far more relevant to understanding his "pitch" to the American public and rise. — Goszei (talk) 03:19, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, Goszei is right. The current formulation is misleading. It is also inderectly suggesting that Trump went to politics because he was failing in business. All of this crucially misses the points of his political rise. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:09, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I had not read the current new version of the lead, I did now. It is very good on its shortening on the informations and critiques. I wouldn't cut out anything else at this point.

But it is still missing any kind of information (both contextual and direct) about how and why Trump became popular as a politician. They can all find their place on the second paragraph, a couple of sentences could be enough. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

For exemple, it's a shame that those two diffs [[30]] [[31]] from Goszei didn't stand. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:28, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump wasn't a billionaire in the 80s, the article doesn't make that claim, and, if there are any reliable sources for the claim, Goszei should have added the material and the sources to the body. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Interesting, thank you for replying. I have actually took the time to read the body and more in Wealth of Donald Trump. It basically looks like he lied in tax returns to downplay his worth, and boosting his net worth to the public to increase his popularity. Before the 2016 election, there are multiple sources that estimate him at around 2-3 billions. It's a complex dinamic of debt and wealth that could be wrote out better in the lead, especially if it relates to his political rise. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:19, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

This is a fair point. The lead has changed a lot (in a positive direction) over the last few days, and I think I am satisfied with just mentioning that Trump "focused on luxury accommodation" (shortened from the previous list of "skyscrapers, hotels, casinos, and golf courses") because it gets across the personal brand of wealth and luxury that he was well-known for, without treading into the contentious territory about his net worth. — Goszei (talk) 19:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Personally I do not think that the second paragraph is satysfying as is regarding his business aspect. There is something missing to outline how the business relates to his political career. Your latest additions are spot on. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean the connection is there, luxury (mainly in NY?) and a succesfull tv show. But I actually don't know if that's what made him able to launch his campaign, also why the idea of even trying it arose. I hoped to find some analysis of it that at least could lead to a sentence that explains the connection, but maybe there isn't. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Broader critique of the lead and article

To be honest, I believe content like this in this lead, as well as a continued focus on it within the article, represents us sticking our heads in the sand as editors. We are now far beyond the 2016 election, when points like this were used to attack Trump by his political opponents, and have entered a stage where he is bringing about a generational re-alignment in American politics. This lead, this article, and this encyclopedia should seek to clearly explain why Trump appealed to the electorate in 2016 and why he continues to do so, and explain the roots of his movement, which has only grown over the last 8 years. In many places, we miss the forest for the trees: as many political scientists and historians have concluded, Trump won not because he was racist and his voters were too, but because his message exploited an absence within the political establishment of anyone speaking to the interests of the population. We need to weave his ascendancy together with the facts of 40 years of stagnant wages, the financial crash of 2008, the abandonment of the Rust Belt, and the declining living standards of the working class. I write a lot of this up to WP:RECENTISM, but now that he was elected a second time, it is clear that he isn't an aberration but a key figure in U.S. history, and our encyclopedia should reflect this. Perhaps I am asking too much for the nature of this project, but I think this is important, and hope this article improves along these lines in the years of chaos to come. Rant over. — Goszei (talk)

That clarifies this for me. We are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper, and we are not (despite what some believe) his political opponents. We are taking a holistic view of Trump's life and career. He received significant coverage going back to the 1970s. We don't stop talking about past events just because of WP:RECENTISM. That includes his lawsuits and business failures, as well as the successes. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:56, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

A necessary element of taking a holistic view on someone's life is that the view changes with new events, which open new perspectives on what in their life is relevant and what is not. In the narrow sense of editing this article's lead, in my opinion this means focusing on why he gained power in 2016 and now in 2024 and the bases of his mass movement. To me, wasting words on the comparatively trivial matter of his business lawsuits is not part of that overarching goal. If he was just a businessman, yes, but not for who he has become. — Goszei (talk) 22:04, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Fair point. I do believe that the political activities from 2015 on need to be rewritten because of the unavoidable RECENTISM. But, any proper biography of Trump will include his business career, which was substantial and covered in the press and has led him to where he is. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:00, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

More and more RS on the deeper, long-term socio-economic and political trends which I described above are sure to be released and get added to this article. I only ask that editors keep an open mind and adapt to changing conditions within the RS. Much of this article's trivial content, almost all based on nearsighted and shallow analysis of contemporaneous news coverage, will need to be aggressively cut and replaced by the good stuff. Again, this is RECENTISM and will be fixed over time, hopefully sooner rather than later. — Goszei (talk) 18:34, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I could not agree more with Goszei. I have been trying to say the same for a few days. Glad I am not the only one noticing the need for improvement. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 21:46, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

@Farkle Griffen this and other discussion is where Goszei and others have been trying to argument in favor of a direct addition of the elements you removed from the lead. Goszei found a very concise prose in my opinion, which makes the second paragraph feel more complete and makes the connection to how/why Trump won in the third paragraph. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 23:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Conflict of interest section

"During Trump's term in office, he visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days, one visit for every 3.4 days of his presidency" This includes his private residences, such as Mar-a-lago. This does not necessarily equate to a conflict of interest and should not be in the section. This might be substantial evidence enough for political op-eds, but not Wikipedia. It could be phrased like 'Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties'. In-fact, alot of this article could be written in a manner similar to this.

2A00:23C5:6433:4301:C71C:6946:4971:705C (talk) 07:21, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

The source does not say "Trump recieved criticism for often visiting his private properties". It does, however, exactly say "Trump has visited a Trump Organization property on 428 days of his presidency, or one visit every 3.4 days. That means that he has visited on about two days of every week of his presidency." What you are saying it should be changed to is WP:OR and potentially WP:SYNTH. Unless, of course, you can provide a source that directly states it. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 07:29, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I am having some difficulty parsing this source. The main thrust of mentioning his visits to the private properties is that it was leisure when he said he would be busy, and that it was costly to the taxpayer to have him travel there. It seems to be a slightly unnatural reading to say him visiting a property every 3.4 days constitutes a conflict of interest. Tell me if I'm wrong. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:52, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

It relates to earlier in the paragraph, talking about how he was sued for violation of the Domestic Emoluments Clause and Foreign Emoluments Clause. It does read a bit strange when you only read that specific part of the source; it does go on later to explain more about this, so if anything, it should be expanded to include that as opposed to removed. I will however leave that to someone more experienced than me. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 08:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it's too SYNTHY to use it as evidence of him violating those clauses unless a RS makes that connection. What do you think? Or just slap on a and leave it at that? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:13, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

That's probably the best option for now, if it weren't as late I'd probably go in and rework that section myself. But it seems sufficient to me. SmittenGalaxy | talk! 08:20, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Added it in Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:30, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, he significantly overcharged the Secret Service for using his properties when they had no choice but to be there.[32][33] – Muboshgu (talk) 14:48, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this context. It does seem a bit small-fry compared to the other controversies listed. Why do you think a mention would not be UNDUE? You're more familiar with this page than I. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 15:25, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump overcharging the Secret Service demonstrates his attempts to enrich himself off of the presidency, and there are sources for this throughout the time of his first campaign, presidency, and Biden's presidency. Above I provided a source from 2022 and one from 2024. Here's one from 2016, one from 2017, and one from 2018. It's certainly DUE for a sentence in the body. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:24, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless I've missed it, none of those sources allege Trump was overcharging. Each just notes that the USSS reimburses private entities for the cost of bringing them around, but the difference in the Trump case is that he typically owns the private planes, hotels, etc, to which the reimbursements are paid. A storm in a teacup. Riposte97 (talk) 22:19, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Would you kindly briefly summarise the sources you mention and explain how you would use them? Thank you, Politrukki (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Deceptive claim and deceptive edit. The 2022 source is about allegations in a letter by House oversight committee chair, a Democrat. The 2024 source is about a House oversight committee minority report. The minority of Democrats does not represent the committee as a whole. Politrukki (talk) 19:28, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Deception is not my intent, nor is it an assumption of good faith in your part to suggest I am trying to deceive anyone. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:58, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

I made no such suggestion. By "deceptive" I mean "misleading". I have not ascribed any motive, just stated the obvious. AGF works both ways. Politrukki (talk) 14:52, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

"Deception" implies intent. There's no AGF on vocabulary, unless English is not your first language. That I do not know. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:03, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Please just stop. Politrukki (talk) 15:46, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

When you're more careful in the language you use, I'll stop. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I do think the content you tagged should be removed as improper synthesis, as explained. Removing the tag certainly was not helpful. Politrukki (talk) 18:07, 8 November 2024 (UTC)

Removal seems in order.--Jack Upland (talk) 02:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

What's the synthesis? Is that sources don't use the phrase "conflict of interest"? The Democratic minority report called it "the world’s greatest get-rich-quick scheme" and discusses the emoluments issue. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:05, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

We are talking about Bump's column. I do not see a hook for "conflict of interest" in that source – either explicit or implicit. Politrukki (talk) 15:45, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's a Time magazine piece that directly uses the term "conflict of interest" to describe the Trump presidency use of Trump Organization properties. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:18, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Where are you going with this? This sub thread is solely about Bump's column, about the content removed in this edit. Politrukki (talk) 17:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak to what was in the Bump column as it's paywalled, but I added sourced content about Trump properties being a conflict of interest and it was removed without an explanation, or at least I can't find it. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:50, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I did insert a link to an archived version without the paywall, but it was removed. I understand the page is near the WP:PEIS limit, but the solution is surely using #invoke or such rather than creating accessibility issues? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

This is the link to the archived version. Don't most editors know how to access the Wayback Machine and paste the url of a paywalled article into the text field? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:34, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Most? I doubt it. I think that's covered in Wikipedia Editing 302. ―Mandruss ☎ 15:39, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Muboshgu has waaay more edits than me and is an admin to boot, so I just assumed. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll go with "that's when the wayback machine was down". Or I just forgot to check it. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:20, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I added material with RS that made the connection between Trump visits and influence-seekers at his private residences. They're actually commercial properties where he also maintains a private residence. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

This edit was not restoration of "longstanding content" but a proposed replacement for it. Unfortunately the proposal is unnecessarily wordy. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Assassination attempts in lede?

Why not a brief mention of the two assassination attempts against Trump in the lede? Surely it's up there in notability with him serving two non-consecutive terms. Evaporation123 (talk) 01:35, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

There have been more then 2 John Bois (talk) 04:24, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I was thinking this earlier today. Feels odd that this is not mentioned. (Discuss 0nshore's contributions!!!) 15:57, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it was a very important event in Trump's political life, so it's correct to include this information in the lead. JacktheBrown (talk) 18:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Popular vote win or loss?

“winning both the popular and electoral vote” this is from the newest section of the lead he did win the electoral vote but the popular vote is still being counted as of 11/8 11:20 EST he has only a 2.6% lead with millions of votes left to count particularly from California

this is assumption and there isn’t any vaild source claiming he did this needs to be removed immediately John Bois (talk) 04:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

From the cursory research I've just done, including NBC and NYT, it does appear a popvote loss is within the realm of possibility, so there may be a bit of WP:CRYSTAL there. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:51, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn’t it be removed until then? John Bois (talk) 18:49, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Someone may have to do that just to get some eyes on the issue. You don't need prior agreement for a bold edit that does not violate an existing consensus. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:04, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Leave it be, until/if Harris passes him. PS - @John Bois: It would be best to first bring this up at 2024 United States presidential election, where Trump's pop-vote total is currently bolden, in the infobox. GoodDay (talk) 19:28, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

@John Bois WP:THEHILL has reported a popular vote win for Trump; however, if it’s not already covered in the body it probably should be added. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:30, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

NBC NYT and AP have not declared it yet John Bois (talk) 19:32, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

I've opened up a discussion at the 2024 election page, about your concerns. Honestly though, most of the networks must have confirmed that there's not enough (currently uncounted) votes left for Harris to overtake Trump, going by the percentage track. GoodDay (talk) 19:36, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! John Bois (talk) 04:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I suppose it’s up to editor consensus since we have some reliable sources reporting popular vote victory and some are not. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:38, 9 November 2024 (UTC)

If there are a few reliable sources claiming it, we should have it in until proven otherwise. There is pretty good confidence/credible info that points that direction. I think WP:CRYSTALBALL is more of unsubstantiated claims. MaximusEditor (talk) 18:29, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

There's no harm in waiting for it to be official. California only has 63% reporting at the moment, there are more votes to come that at the very least will make it a narrow margin either way. Zaathras (talk) 01:09, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Inclusion of release of grades

I removed "In 2015, Trump's lawyer threatened Trump's colleges, his high school, and the College Board with legal action if they released his academic records" from the early life section saying it was "undue for this section". A few hours later, Farkle Griffen added it back in with the description "Explained why his academic performance is not known", not addressing the concern about whether it was giving it too much emphasis. Before I removed the text, I did a search of coverage, and found that the issue was very rarely mentioned after it was discovered, and only in passing. Giving it a relatively high amount of attention in the early life section therefore seems inappropriate. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:33, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

I disagree Anonymous8206 (talk) 00:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Didn't see that it was previously removed, but mentioning academic performance in school is relatively common in Wikipedia articles on biographies of political figures, and it's certainly relevant in a section about academic history; mentioning why this information is not available seems just as relevant. I don't see how a single sentence is too much emphasis. Farkle Griffen (talk) 00:45, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Farkle Griffen Could you respond to the issue of coverage not being lasting (applying WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM)? I do believe the Early life section should be expanded; if that happened I would be more likely to support inclusion. Right now however, "one sentence" makes up 20% of Wikipedia's coverage of Trump's early life. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:13, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

To be clear, I'm not that much in favor of keeping it, it just feels like a strange argument to say: "This section is too short... so we should make it shorter." But to respond to your first sentence, this news went viral around February 2019, which was five (nearly six) years ago; I could be wrong, but I don't think WP:NOTNEWS and WP:RECENTISM apply here. Farkle Griffen (talk) 01:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Re Farkle Griffen; it is a strange argument, but the idea is that the article is already very unbalanced against the Early life section, and this would make a negligible change to that imbalance, while the Early life section is very unbalanced towards this event, and removing it would make a significant change to that imbalance. See my reply below for RECENTISM in particular. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

coverage not being lasting You seem to be saying we shouldn't keep the content because RS is not still talking about it. That doesn't seem workable, since RS has other things to talk about. RECENTISM? What's recent about something that happened nine years ago? ―Mandruss ☎ 02:00, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The second sentence of RECENTISM says "It is writing without an aim toward a long-term, historical view," which is how I'm assessing DUE. The best sources for assessing whether biographical details are DUE in this sense are, obviously, biographies, as they are assessing how details fit into a life as a whole. On the other end of the spectrum, the absolute worst sources for this assessment are breaking news sources about a revelation about a biographical detail. As an example, Trump's eligibility for the draft received a lot more coverage than this over a longer time period. But biographies published after the fact treat it as a small issue in his early life overall. These sources are therefore insufficient to show it is DUE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:35, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm struggling to imagine writing this article primarily based on published biographies, in which content can't be written or verified without a trip to the library or a book store. Are we to limit editing to editors who are prepared to do that (which would exclude me), or should the rest of us just take the word of those who are?

As a practical matter, you're not going to get consensus for reasoning that departs from how editors have operated here for eight years—unless you have uninvolved closure in which the closer is convinced by your arguments. You may be in the unfortunate position of being far superior to your colleagues. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I won't press this any further, there doesn't seem to be momentum. For my own benefit in determining if material is DUE on this page in the future, would "Coverage across multiple RS is sufficient to suggest inclusion is DUE" be an accurate summary of this discussion?

I will note that high-quality sources that are doing overall evaluations are most beneficial for DUE in creating the bones of the article. Editors still have to put meat on them. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:33, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, the article has been dysfunctional in the DUE area for eight years. Some content has been added on the basis of one or two sources and accompanying "editorial judgment" that it's DUE. Other content has been omitted on the basis of 15 sources and accompanying "editorial judgment" that it's UNDUE. It seemed to me that DUE has been more about "editorial judgment" than anything else, which left the article wide open to editor biases. Thankfully, one of the main culprits was recently indefinitely banned from all things Donald Trump (not for that reason but for bad behavior), but they were only one. I can't fix the world. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV? In a similar vein, you mention below that you are looking for arguments beyond editorial judgement, and you later indicated this was met. What was it that convinced you that DUE was met? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:07, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Based on your experience here, what do you think should be done to help with NPOV? In a better encyclopedia, ArbCom or WMF would intervene here. That's fantasy at this point, so I don't know what could be done. It's part of why I'm semi-retired. I'm just here for the mental stimulation, for interaction with other smart people (I don't do social media), because I have a talent for efficiency and organization that makes me a good facilitator on this page, and because I have nothing better to do with my time. What was it that convinced you that DUE was met? Six linked sources and the promise of about a dozen others, which I took at face value. We can talk about "larger issues" all day long, but we also have to get some work done. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:26, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for these comments. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:27, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

There's too much "editorial judgment" going on here. Somebody please present a persuasive DUE case for inclusion, based on RS coverage. Absent that, I support the removal. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:58, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what DUE has to do with this since this doesn't seem to be a NPOV issue, however, for RS coverage, just going going off the first results on Google, this is mentioned by: Time Magazine , AP News, CNN, PBS News, NY Times, and WP, among about a dozen others. Granted, these are news stories, not biographies. Farkle Griffen (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken, DUE has everything to do with all content. Granted, these are news stories, not biographies. I'd say 90%+ of the article is based on news stories; that's the nature of the beast. (As I interpret it, NOTNEWS mostly means we don't (or shouldn't) rush to publish breaking news.) Now, since I don't move goalposts, you have persuaded me unless someone can persuasively counter your case by showing how those sources don't support the content. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

AFAIK, "DUE" only refers to WP:DUE, which is a subsection of WP:Neutral Point of View, and only really talks about the due weight of a viewpoint. Am I wrong? Farkle Griffen (talk) 06:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

You're right, although DUE tends to be used as a shorthand for all weighting issues. WP:PROPORTION is more accurate. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:28, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Hey, I'm no policy guru; much of it moggles my bind. All I know is that, in practice at this article and others where I've spent significant time, "viewpoint" is a very broad term loosely applied. Why don't you take this specific case to WP:NPOVN and (with any luck) educate all of us? ―Mandruss ☎ 06:30, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

We need room for obvious reasons. Stuff like this should probably be on the chopping block. R. G. Checkers ^talk 05:06, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

R. G. Checkers Why do you think this is undue? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:09, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

We are never going to make significant progress on article size one sentence at a time; might as well try to significantly shrink Lake Erie using buckets while others are pouring water into it with other buckets </hyperbolic metaphor>. Progress on article size will require gutting large parts of the article, such as much of the detail in "Foreign policy", moving to summary style. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Related discussion at "Wording of sentence on Trump attending New York Military Academy" with more sources, above. Trump has claimed since the 1970s that he graduated at the top of his class at Wharton and that you had to be a super genius to be admitted to Wharton in 1966. Both claims were debunked, despite Trump not releasing his records. And in 2019 Michael Cohen turned over the threatening letters Trump had him send to Wharton and his high school. It wasn't just the news of the day, it's been mentioned in probably every Trump biography published since then. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

As for need[ing] room for obvious reasons, that's [[WP:CRYSTALBALL]. My crystal ball thinks we'll end up with comparisons between his first and second presidency, resulting in fewer details for the first one. We'll have to wait and see what RS report about the second one. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:59, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks Space4Time3Continuum2x. I've got my copy of Trump Revealed to see the weighting they place. Their discussion of Trump's grades are quite limited, and only really discussed in the context of Wharton, which makes sense given that was a focus to establish credibility as a businessman. In their discussion of Trump at Wharton, they give an equal amount of value Trump ascribed to the degree, to his draft exemption, his later alumni contributions and how relatively wealth he was compared to the cohort. His education at Wharton covers four pages of the 20 dedicated to his early life.

A lot more of the text is spent discussing his aggression as a child and teen; this should be included before his grades are. If his Early life were expanded to the size of Barack Obama's, it should certainly be included. I'll check other biographies later to see how their emphases compare. The needing room comment may refer to the article's size already being very long. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:05, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

The book was published in 2016, three years before Cohen told the NYT about Trump's efforts to keep his grades secret after harping about Obama's academic record for years. As if anyone but Trump would care about high school grades 50 years later. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply it was published after this came out. In your estimation, how much more of the early life section would have been taken up by it if it had? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 14:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

No idea. Pre-presidency content that went to character kept getting trimmed because of the avalanche of presidency events. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Statistic and Grover Cleveland in the lead

Becoming only the second President in history to serve non-consecutive terms, the first being Grover Cleveland. Is the statistic leadworthy? Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? (Also, MOS:EDITORIAL, MOS:OFFICE, and missing subject and verb.) Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:21, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I personally think that something that has only happened twice in over 200 years of U.S. presidency is lead worthy, but others may disagree, that's just my two cents Artem P75 (talk) 22:19, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

This indicates support for the first sentence. Do you support the second? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:41, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what the second is proposing, I had a look at those policies but have obviously missed / overlooked something when trying to understand Artem P75 (talk) 23:39, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Artem P75 apologies if I was unclear. The second sentence is Is Grover Cleveland leadworthy? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I guess maybe not? as he isn't the subject matter? Maybe we could mention Trump being only the second without mentioning Grover... but I also do agree with @Muboshgu that the lead is too long and could use some culling Artem P75 (talk) 00:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Not to nitpick, but he hasn't served his second term, yet. The sentence would be more accurate, after he assumes office in January 2025. GoodDay (talk) 22:43, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah yeah, I agree with that, I think the policy is WP:CRYSTALBALL? Or something that I have seen used for this? Maybe could say elected to serve a second term instead? Otherwise may as well just wait until the 20th of Jan to make the decision Artem P75 (talk) 23:38, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Our lead is too long as it is. Throwing in this tidbit about Grover Cleveland doesn't help matters. It's WP:TRIVIA. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Removed Grover Cleveland reference Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:44, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Not trivia by any means; pulling a Grover Cleveland by winning the 2024 Presidential race after losing a bid for re-election in 2020 is something Donald here has lately been getting lots of attention for, with the press making comparisons between both men following this highly unusual achievement. The 132 years elapsing before that happening on the other hand is an expendable count. We definitely should have some mention of doing something only Grover did before. Let's not downplay the significance of it. The first paragraph doesn't necessarily have to be the place to discuss that, and I'm fine with the last one doing so. In the linked diff showing removal, Rollinginhisgrave also carelessly ignored how the ambiguity of just saying Donald is the second to win non-consecutive election will leave readers asking "Who was the first to do so?" and we shouldn't assume everyone will already know the answer. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 02:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Highly unusual because parties usually have the good sense not to nominate the loser a second time, but good sense goes out the window after a political party has transformed itself into a cult. Cleveland's misogyny (sensible and responsible women do not want to vote. The relative positions to be assumed by men and women in the working out of our civilization were assigned long ago by a higher intelligence) and anti-labor stance would have fit right in but how many readers come to this page to read about him. Also, "second"? Trump has a few — uh — achievements all to himself: first felon, first man found liable by a court for sexual assault, first nominee/president-elect to be promoting merch from shoes to Bibles Made in China branded with his name. If we want to cite stats in the lead, these are the ones we should select. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 13:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS Much of the lede invites questions: why did his businesses fail? How did Russia interfere? What did he do that was racist, sexist etc? So on. To answer those questions a reader may read on to see what the lede is summarizing. It's the nature of summary style. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:56, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

You're presuming all viewers would have enough time to read the page beyond its lead section and that's not a guarantee. To elaborate on rarity, what I'm getting at is that non-consecutive wins are an almost unprecedented occurrence that many folks once believed would never be repeated. The closest anybody came before last week was Theodore Roosevelt during the 1912 election. This is far less common than things like businesses failing or someone being racist/sexist. While I can't yet say for sure that it'll be the most prominent trait of his Presidential statistics like it appears to be for Grover, people either way would expect a straightforward mention of names when discussing only one of two in history who broke longstanding patterns. It wouldn't exactly be a big bloat to simply identify him. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:47, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I would agree that something that has happened only twice in over 200 years is lead worthy... I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with:

"In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall..."

Should probably just be moved to the "First Presidency" section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead... but I will not expand the subject matter here and will raise another talk page post on this Artem...^Talk 22:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Leads convey the most important parts of the person's bio. There are a number of sources about Grover Cleveland's presidency now that we have a second non-consecutive term president, but this press will die out before Thanksgiving and it will be mostly forgotten. Cleveland is meaningless to Trump's biography aside from that one trivial commonality. I do agree about the need for a thorough rewrite though. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

We need to reflect the emphasis that RS put on this. Our discussion of the comparison to Cleveland is sourced to this NPR article. Those who support including the comparison in the lede: do you think this sourcing verifies that inclusion in the lede would be WP:PROPORTIONATE, and that it's inclusion (from WP:MOS/LEAD) reflect[s] its importance to the topic? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:35, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not think there is a weight issue here per WP:PROPORTIONATE, it currently only makes up a single sentence of the lead, its not as though it goes in to depth or discussion, it just mentions it as a single line tagged on to the mentioning of his second victory, which was a non-consecutive victory, so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history. Although this is also mentioned at the end of the first paragraph: "In November 2024, he was re-elected to a second, non-consecutive term as president" so we could add mention of the fact that this is only the second time this has happened in that section and remove mention of it in the last paragraph? Artem...^Talk 23:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Just to be clear, that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons between these guys, and Artem has a good point on weight/proportionate concerns. I see no violation per the importance of these unconventional winning stats. Muboshgu also got overly hasty with remarks on people forgetting it before Thanksgiving. That's purely speculation and we have no way of telling for certain how many will remember the similarities. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks SNUGGUMS and Artem for these replies. I agree that Muboshgu's comment likely fell too far into WP:CRYSTALBALL, but we do need to account for WP:RECENTISM. Including one sentence on something of course can give too much weight, even if it's not in depth. I'm sure you can think of many examples. Proportion therefore applies, as does MOS:LEAD.

so I believe is worth mentioning as it is only the second in history I understand you believe that, but we are to reflect the importance placed by RS. Do you think that is demonstrated by the source provided?

that NPR link isn't the only piece to make comparisons If you think other sources are able/better able to verify the importance, please provide them.

I want to reassure you both that I'm not opposed to including the comparison, I just want to ensure it's inclusion doesn't violate WP:NPOV by verifying that importance placed reflects that of RS. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I guess if giving appropriate weight to the RS is the concern it would be beneficial to locate other sources that report on this so as to not give an undue balance. I'm sure this will not be difficult as it does seem like something noteworthy, but then again it may not be as noteworthy as I perceive and there very may well not be much RS on it. I will see if I can locate some good reliable sources in my free time this afternoon and propose them here Artem...^Talk 01:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, there's pieces from The Daily Telegraph, The Hill, The New York Times, USA Today Miami Herald, WBC-TV (aka NBC Washington), etc. that discuss differences and similarities between the men. If you want other samples, then I could provide those as well. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 06:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That's okay for now. This goes some way to establishing WP:WEIGHT, although insufficiently (it's unclear how this goes beyond simple verifiability, and verifiability does not guarantee inclusion). To avoid Wikipedia:Bring me a rock, if you'll permit me a few hours I'll have a look through sourcing. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS, Artem P75 I had a go at evaluating the weighting RS put on claims to importance. I used a sample of sources; a different sample may generate different results.

I searched "donald trump win" (not in quotes) on Google. I opened every result for a few pages and closed pages that were attributed as an individual's opinion or analysis. I closed some that didn't discuss what the election meant. I closed some that were about a subtopic, such as the election win in Arizona, and talked about the importance to Arizona etc. Excluded articles were: [34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44][45][46]. I then crudely coded the results and even more crudely numerically described the emphasis the source was placing (1 being in the title, 0 being not mentioned).

Extended content

Crude Coding of news articles Title Outlet + Latino shift + votes on border + Urban votes No change in suburban vote Rural vote Swing state sweep Political comeback Won frustrated voters Validated coarse rhetoric Outperformed 2020 + US stock market + BTC Non-consecutive Grover Cleveland First convicted felon Oldest elected Prices Crime Migrants Kamala unpopular Biden Consumer sentiment Inflation Young voters Suburban movement Not a huge win Shocked Democrats Women voters Black voters College degree voters Kamala time-short Trump's Continuing dominance of politics Blue wall defeated COVID considered history Tim Walz bad White voters Economy Decisive Popular vote, first Republican in 20 years Religious Trans Deportation Anti-elite Not shocking 2nd time beating woman Not seen as fascist Female president Protests Men White without college degree Direction of country Trump’s 2024 victory revealed voter shifts that could reshape America’s political landscape CNN 0.75 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Election 2024: Trump sweeps all 7 battleground states, CBS News projects CBS 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Trump wins the White House in a political comeback rooted in appeals to frustrated voters AP 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.9 0.5 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Donald Trump’s Election Victory, in 6 Charts U.S. News 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0.5 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2024 US Election: Donald Trump wins Arizona in swing state sweep Le Monde 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 How Trump Won Time 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0.25 0.25 0.25 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 US election results: How did Donald Trump break the ‘blue wall’ – again? Al Jazeera 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0.4 0.4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Donald Trump wins election in historic comeback after 2020 loss, indictments and bruising campaign CBS 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0 0.5 0 0 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Donald Trump wins 2024 US election in historic comeback BBC 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Election takeaways: Trump’s decisive victory in a deeply divided nation AP 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.3 0.25 0 0.3 0.5 0 0 0 0.1 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0.5 0.3 0.3 0.3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Donald Trump Returns to Power, Ushering in New Era of Uncertainty NY Times 0.3 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0.7 0 0 0 0 0.5 0.5 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0.4 0.25 0 0 0 0 0 The view from countries where Trump's win really matters BBC 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Donald Trump wins 2nd term in historic return to White House ABC 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.6 0 0 0.6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 What Donald Trump’s Win Means for Inflation Time 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Trump wins Arizona to clinch sweep of seven battleground states The Guardian 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 0 Donald Trump wins presidential election, defeating Harris to retake White House Washington Post 0.75 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.4 0.35 0 0.4 0.25 0 0 0.6 0 0 0.7 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.25 0 0 0 0.75 0.75 0.75 Sum 3.55 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 3 5.25 3.1 0.5 0.25 0.25 0.25 1.15 1.1 0.75 1.65 0.9 0.25 1.65 1.6 0.5 2.65 1.6 0.4 0.5 0.4 0.5 1.55 0.25 0.25 0.5 0.5 0.4 0.4 0.65 0.5 1.75 0.5 0.3 0.3 0.8 0 0.25 0.65 0.25 1 0 0.75 0.75 0.75

Takeaways:

• From this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback.
• The increase in Trump's vote among Latinos was also seen as significant, for example:
  • "A trend with the potential to remake the American political landscape is the huge shift in Latino voters toward Trump."
  • "As has been extensively noted, exit polls show that Latino men went from backing Biden by 23 points to backing Trump by 12 points, a stunning result.")
• It was seen as less historic that Trump was the second president to have non-consecutive terms than that he was the oldest.
• When sources did mention the historicity of Trump's non-consecutive terms, they gave equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

With all of those results in mind, I don't see any problems with due weight for the part regarding non-consecutive wins. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 13:10, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I actually think the opposite having now done the review. Could you clarify why including the fact in the lead at all would be giving due weight, when it was not given such weight by RS? Surely the appropriate outcome here given would be to replace it with the characterization as a political comeback? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

"...replace it with the characterization as a political comeback" I would support this. To me it is significant that he was the second in history to win non-consecutive terms and I find it quite interesting, but from the above it seems like there has been next to no coverage on it, and Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the weight given by WP:RS, so unfortunately I don't see a reason to include this fact in the lead Artem...^Talk 21:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

By your own admission, Rollinginhisgrave, it was equal emphasis of the achievement with a discussion of Grover Cleveland. That suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy. It's unreasonable to now assert otherwise and the way you did so sounds like a cheap cop-out. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 22:41, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Please assume good faith of me, I have no preferences beyond reflecting the weight of RS, and I 100% agree that the results above suggests any mention of the non-consecutive wins would be an appropriate place to name the other guy; if included in the body, it should be represented as such. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

In that case, keep a watch for any other pieces that come up covering both men, and those can be assessed for further calculations on weight. It wouldn't surprise me to see more pop up, but only time will tell how many others will talk about their similarities and differences. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:22, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

SNUGGUMS It wouldn't surprise me either. When/if we get there, we can make those alterations. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Russia was a hoax

Mueller’s results found nothing so that part is 100% INACCURATE. 71.205.198.48 (talk) 02:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Could you be more specific in what you're referring to / proposing?

...To me, this makes no sense Artem...^Talk 02:52, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

In our biographical article on Trump, we spend a lot of space on possible collusion by Trump's 2016 campaign with Russia interference, although Mueller Report, vol. I, p. 173: "Ultimately, the investigation did not establish that the Campaign coordinated or conspired with the Russian government in its election-interference activities." Bob K31416 (talk) 07:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding a lot of space, see the section Investigations. Also, I looked in the subsection Mueller Investigation and I couldn't find any mention of the ultimate result mentioned in my above message. Bob K31416 (talk) 15:20, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Do we say there was collusion? Slatersteven (talk) 15:27, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

No, but the report not finding any evidence of collusion resulted in it being a political debacle for the Democrats, basically vindicated Trump's charges of a "Russiagate witchhunt", and embarrassed the news media (notably the NYT, who pumped the story day after day for years in a manner which is honestly comparable to the false stories about alleged WMDs before the Iraq War). What this article says is correct, but these circumstances should make us rethink its mention within the lead. — Goszei (talk) 01:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Another sensible point. The landscape has shifted beneath our feet here, and we haven't been responsive to the latest RS. A lot of the Russia stuff is legacy text from a time when RS were much more comfortable speculating about a link between Trump and the Kremlin. That's now largely stopped as more information has come out. Riposte97 (talk) 10:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I also agree on this. The lead is too long, and ultimately the Russia-Muller angle petered out. Even if something was regularly on the news at the time, it probably shouldn't be in the lead if it had little lasting significance. NICHOLAS NEEDLEHAM (talk) 11:30, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox

Re: [47]

This keeps getting added and removed with no resolution in sight. As I understand it, the rationale for omission has been that the parents are covered by the "Trump family" link. On the other hand, so are the children and they remain linked in the infobox. I'm thinking it's parents and children, or neither. In any case, let's settle this once and, hopefully, for all. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Looking at other U.S. politician's pages, specifically Barack Obama and George W. Bush, they both have their parents listed, and then a separate section for "relatives" with Obama Family and Bush Family respectively being linked. The same applies to John F. Kennedy and Kamala Harris to name some other examples, so I would think we should follow suit on the Trump article Artem...^Talk 05:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I was about to make almost the same post, except that "Spouses" is also thoroughly covered by the link, so I would say it's either include parents or remove children and spouses.

The current infobox is somewhat long already, but information like Children/Spouses/Parents is extremely common in biographies on Wikipedia, and usually considered "pertinent information", so I can see reasoning in either direction.

I don't really care which direction is chosen, but for consistency with other articles, I'd lean more toward adding the parents. Farkle Griffen (talk) 05:33, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

MOS:INFOBOX identifies the purpose of inboxes as allowing the reader to "identify key facts at a glance". Given this, the link to Family of Donald Trump should be removed. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 05:45, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily disagreeing, but it appears to be an argument against the |relatives= parameter of {{Infobox officeholder}}. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:57, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps, I'm not sure how it is applied/intended. If it is intended to list notable individual relatives, then it's not an argument against. Probably best to assume that's the intent as it is the assumption that aligns with the guidelines. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so all of the cited precedents are just wrong, and I could live with that. "The existence of bad stuff does not justify or excuse the addition or retention of other bad stuff of the same kind. Not all consistency is good consistency." On my user page since January 2018. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

If we were to agree to remove these fields and lump it all into Trump Family would we then have to go to the other politician pages to also change this? I'm not opposed to this, it just seems like a lot of work for a change that seems like a matter of semantics Artem...^Talk 06:08, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Remove the fields of both parents/children? I don't think anyone's making the case for that. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:10, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Apologies Mandruss, I don't seem to be carefully reading at the moment, I will take a break. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:21, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

We could, but we wouldn't have to. That kind of thing always turns little issues into gigantic issues, and other articles are not affected by decisions made at this one. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't this same reasoning apply to the Awards section? Farkle Griffen (talk) 06:11, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Avoid topic expansion. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:14, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand Mandruss' comment above, but yes I would say so. Could be worth asking for clarity on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 06:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm thinking ahead to a consensus item about Parents, children, and spouses links in the infobox, which would link to this discussion, which would contain stuff about other issues. Not good organization. Address separate topics separately. Start linking issues like that, and things quickly grow too large to deal with effectively. Usually not helpful to try to solve all the related problems at once. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:23, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The point being, if the same logic applies, then I don't think the reasoning is valid. There is no way the intended use of the Awards section is to list the "most important" awards, because choosing which are the "most important" would be very controversial on every article where the subject has more than a few awards (let alone this article).

Of course, this is all speculation, and I could be wrong. Farkle Griffen (talk) 06:36, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

If you're not proposing we do something to the |awards= parameter in this discussion, disregard my comments with my apologies. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Edited after reply 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Don't apologize; it was a very reasonable assumption Farkle Griffen (talk) 06:46, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I apologize for apologizing. Stricken. :) ―Mandruss ☎ 06:48, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

I've posted a question here at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes. Hopefully they can clarify the intent, as there seems to be some disagreement on the talk page. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 08:31, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Financial

Here's some material that is in our article at [48]

Financial

In April 2019, the House Oversight Committee issued subpoenas seeking financial details from Trump's banks, Deutsche Bank and Capital One, and his accounting firm, Mazars USA. Trump sued the banks, Mazars, and committee chair Elijah Cummings to prevent the disclosures.[506] In May, DC District Court judge Amit Mehta ruled that Mazars must comply with the subpoena,[507] and judge Edgardo Ramos of the Southern District Court of New York ruled that the banks must also comply.[508][509] Trump's attorneys appealed.[510] In September 2022, the committee and Trump agreed to a settlement about Mazars, and the accounting firm began turning over documents.[511]

It doesn't appear to be worthwhile for our article, is just taking up space and maybe we should delete it. Bob K31416 (talk) 22:59, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Bob K31416 What weighting do RS give it? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:19, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

In the material there were 6 refs. The first was April 22, 2019, then 4 refs May 21–22 and finally one September 17. It was an episode of congress subpoenas for some of Trump's financial records. As we look at the episode today, there doesn't seem to be much of interest there. Bob K31416 (talk) 11:58, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Bob K31416 Hope you don't mind, I may take a day or a few getting to this, but I'm not ignoring it and think it is worth evaluating in some depth. In the meantime, have a look in secondary sources 2022 and later and see if they discuss/give weight. Some examples of sources: Criminology on Trump and Indicting the 45th president Boss Trump, the GOP, and what we can do about the threat to American democracy. Look for academic reviews of texts like these to contextualize them in academic literature; I find writing a Wikipedia article based on the reviews helpful to share such research with other editors and ensure NPOV. If I haven't responded in a few days, ping me. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 14:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Lead cleanup move third para in lead to "First Presidency" section

I think the lead in general needs a very thorough cleanup, for example the entire third paragraph, starting with:

"In his first term, Trump ordered a travel ban on citizens from several Muslim-majority countries, funded expansion of the Mexico–United States border wall..."

Should probably just be moved to the "First Presidency" section... These are things he did while he was in office for his first term so I would think that is the section where they belong rather than contributing to the bloat in the lead.

We have mention of racism and sexism in the second paragraph preceding this one, so I don't think it is appropriate to go into discussion of his policies that reflect this in the lead, but are better left to be considered in the article body per my brief understanding of MOS:LEAD, MOS:INTRO and WP:LEADLENGTH Artem...^Talk 23:05, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The lead absolutely requires a description of the policies he implemented as president. It doesn't "contribute to bloat" because it is one of the core features of his biography, this article, and the lead of any article on a U.S. president (or leader of any country). The details can be debated, but pretty much everything mentioned is important. If anything is bloat in the current lead, it is instead sentences such as "He and his businesses have been involved in more than 4,000 legal actions, including six business bankruptcies" (see my proposal to remove this above), or perhaps the exact details on his indictments (which as commentators have noted [49] are now basically dead) and civil liabilities. — Goszei (talk) 23:17, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

That is a fair point - do you think it requires such an in-depth of a discussion about those policies though? The business and legal actions / bankruptcies I agree should be looked at, I think maybe cut down or removed and left for the body? These things happen all the time with businesses. I also think the exact details of his indictments could be removed and left for the body - I think mention of them should stay in the lead as a summary of the body, but as a whole I do not believe the specific details are lead appropriate and should be left for later on in the article Artem...^Talk 00:15, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

If we want to trim down that section of the lead, it should probably done to the list of things he did in response to COVID, or the part about Kim Jong Un and North Korea, since nothing substantial came of that. The parts besides those are too important to cut, in my opinion. I will note that there are other things that had real effects which are currently absent and could be added, such as the USMCA or Abraham Accords. There's also nothing about the Operation Warp Speed or the CARES Act, which some editors have mentioned in this discussion above. — Goszei (talk) 00:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

A "discussion" involving two editors that lasted 91 minutes and you claim that a consensus has appeared to emerge? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

No, I was not referring to this thread, but this one above. I believe that a fairly clear consensus has emerged there. — Goszei (talk) 17:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

My apology, hadn't seen that one. Will respond there. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

These things happen all the time with businesses: does the majority of reliable sources say so? Not to my knowledge, and we have many sources to the contrary. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Biggest Political Comeback In US History

He staged the single biggest comeback in US Political History as quoted by Newsweek, CNN and others (they agreed greater than Nixon's in 1968) achieving the 2nd highest popular vote totals ever including a record amount of support from minority voters (Black, Hispanic, Jewish, Asian) than any other Republican in history. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 08:14, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

So what do you want us to say? Slatersteven (talk) 10:38, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

State the facts, they are written directly below the Topic Header. You can expand upon it if you wish by including the final official numbers for minority and popular vote totals but those will be another week or so away. Regardless of the timeline, he's already achieved both facts stated above about the popular vote and the minority vote. He's also achieved 2 out of the top 3 largest popular vote totals ever recorded in American history. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 11:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any RS that say this was the "Biggest Political Comeback In US History"? Slatersteven (talk) 11:47, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

of course, I'm not sure how to link articles on here but if you Google "Newsweek How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History" it will show the article written by Carlo Versano from 1 week ago. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

This would fail wp:v for your suggestion (clickbait titles are not RS). There is also here an issue of wp:undue. We can (at best say) "according the Newsweek he pulled off the biggest political comeback in modern US history". I am unsure, that this improves our article. Slatersteven (talk) 12:03, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, another article you can Google (sorry about no links) is "Daily Express 8 greatest political comebacks in history: from Trump and Farage to Churchill and Lenin." Again, the topic header stated US Political Comebacks. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:19, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Sure, what? Slatersteven (talk) 12:27, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

CNN "How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback" article from November 6th also. There are many more articles from mainstream sources stating this again and again. That would be 3 direct, seperate resources reiterating the Topic Header. You could say, "according to many sources, Donald Trump pulled off the biggest comeback in US political history." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Popular vote total is trivial since as the population grows, the number is higher and higher. A more accurate measure would be % of the popular vote which Trump did not earn a significant majority of when compared to prior presidents like Reagan or F.D.R. Noah, BSBA^Talk 11:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't consider it trivial, there's never an infinite expansion of populations. Look at China, South Korea, Japan, etc. Many countries are shrinking in demographics. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 11:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

The 2024 population is estimated to be 24 million higher than the 2020 population which is higher than the 2016 population.... Pretty much every election cycle prior has had more eligible voters. Having a larger percentage of the country support someone is more important than simply having the most. If F.D.R. won today by the same margin he did in 1936, it would be almost 90 million people. Noah, BSBA^Talk 11:55, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

By that logic it sounds like there should've been another 10+ million more total votes this election cycle than in 2020 but the fact is there wasn't. The truth is, Trump has won 2 of the top 3 total popular vote counts in history, and also defeated 2 Democratic candidates in a single election cycle. That's very relevant, and factual. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Not if there's lower turnout which is what happened this time around. He never ran against Biden in the general election so it isnt factual to say he defeated Biden. He only ran against and defeated Kamala Harris. Biden probably would've lost anyways but that's simply speculation, not fact. Noah, BSBA^Talk 12:12, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

if he was running against him up until 2 months from the election and then dropped out because of a soft coup caused by his disastrous debate performance (and terrible polling numbers), that would be defeating a candidate, 2 to be exact. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 12:23, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

We aren't going to state this because this is not what reliable sources say. Noah, BSBA^Talk 12:53, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources.' Biden continued his campaign after one of the worst debate performances in modern history and afterwards still continued to state he was continuing his campaign, until many Democratic donors, former and current House of Representatives and Senators demanded he quit. That would be a soft coup, especially withholding campaign finances to force him out. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 13:11, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback, CNN. Here's an excerpt, "Millions of Americans, including pivotal voters in Midwest and Sun Belt battlegrounds, cast ballots that clinched Trump’s historic comeback — one that promises to reshape American politics for the foreseeable future."

(To new editors, you can make a link like the above by writing: [https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/06/politics/how-donald-trump-won/index.html How Donald Trump completed a historic political comeback] , i.e. put the link, then space, then the title, all in a pair of brackets.)

Bob K31416 (talk) 13:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

This would broadly fall under WP:OR I would think, which is not allowed. At Wikipedia, we follow what WP:RS reports Artem...^Talk 21:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

My suggestion would be "noted by media as one of the greatest political comebacks in American history." to the end of the sentence about the victory. I don't think it can go unmentioned, it is a very notable point in his political career, and also helps balance out the lead a little. Mb2437 (talk) 12:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a headline 68.57.163.100 (talk) 03:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I am now out of this with a confirmed no to the suggested edit, as what we seem to have is wp:or based upon various sources that do not actually say it was the biggest comeback in US history. Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Should be stated as "one of the greatest" anyway, stating it is "the biggest" outright would be fairly contentious. We typically apply this same nomenclature to great sportspersons e.g. Lionel Messi. It can't really go unmentioned entirely though, it is very widely sourced by major, reliable outlets, and is a major point in his career. Lead reads as incomplete without it. Mb2437 (talk) 12:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTOPINION: unless you provide reliable sources supporting your opinions, you're wasting your and our time. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 14:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump’s win is his greatest resurrection in a career of comebacks, Washington Post. "Trump’s political revival, unparalleled in U.S. history, follows a long pattern in his life of seemingly insurmountable, self-inflicted catastrophes followed by shocking rebounds."

How Trump pulled off an incredible comeback, BBC : "This is surely the most dramatic comeback in US political history."

Greatest comeback? Here’s how Trump stacks up in White House history, Denver Gazette. "President-elect Donald Trump pulled off what many are saying is the greatest political comeback in American history by winning a second non-consecutive term despite a felony conviction and the stain of Jan. 6."

Also, please see the Wikipedia guideline, Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers and policy Wikipedia:Civility. Bob K31416 (talk) 16:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Trump the ‘colossus’ is the comeback king of American politics NY Post. "We are in the midst of the greatest political comeback in American history — which follows, by eight years, the greatest political stunt in American history."

Donald Trump pulled off the ultimate comeback. See how we got here CNN."Despite a felony conviction, two attempts on his life and rhetoric that would have surely sunk any other political campaign, he has completed the ultimate comeback."

Trump Just Staged the Biggest Political Comeback in American History Newsweek."You are witnessing the greatest comeback in American political history.

The previous greatest comeback was by Richard Nixon, who lost his race for President in 1960, only to win decisively in 1968 and again in a 1972 landslide. After his resignation, he staged yet another extraordinary comeback, becoming the most influential former president America has ever had."

Back from the dead: Donald Trump is America’s political Lazarus The Hill. "He is the greatest comeback politician in political history. The closest thing to what Donald Trump has pulled off can be found in 1968 with Richard Nixon."

How Donald Trump Pulled Off the Greatest Comeback in Political History Newsweek."Donald J. Trump completed the greatest political comeback in modern U.S. history in the early hours of Wednesday, claiming enough electoral votes to defeat Vice President Kamala Harris and return to the White House for a second term." 104.230.247.132 (talk) 17:40, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Propaganda isn't 'reliable sources. That's disqualifying right there. Sources Wikipedia accepts as reliable: Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources. Four of the five sources you presented here are opinion pieces which are generally not acceptable, and one of them is from January 2024 and referred to his win in the Iowa caucuses as the "biggest political comeback in American history". CNN's ultimate comeback after having been "temporarily render[ed] [] a pariah in mainstream Republican politics after Biden took office" — I think that means final comeback, not single biggest. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:49, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

That something exists does not make it encyclopedic. Print media engages in sensationalism, esp. in headlines, to attract eyeballs and sell subscriptions. The Wikipedia is not that. Zaathras (talk) 22:22, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

In a review of what reliable sources emphasised when discussing Trump's win in a thread above (see here), one conclusion drawn was that from this sample, for RS, the most significant thing about this election was it being a political comeback. I would have to look at the sources discussing the win more closely to assess how to write it (historic, biggest, attribute or not etc.), but it should be mentioned in the lede to give due weight. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

NO the, lead is a summary of important parts of our article, at best this would warrant one line in the body. Slatersteven (talk) 11:51, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven could you elaborate? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:15, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes (per wp:lead) "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. It is located at the beginning of the article, before the table of contents and the first heading. It is not a news-style lead or "lede" paragraph." it only goes in the lead if it is a major part of our article. It is hard to see how a throwaway headline can ever be spun out into a major section. Slatersteven (talk) 12:42, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Slatersteven I imagine you think including the fact about being the second president to win non-consecutive terms should be removed on the same basis. Do you agree? I am not opposed to merely including that In the 2024 presidential election, Trump defeated the Democratic candidate, incumbent vice president Kamala Harris, winning the popular and electoral college votes.

I am not sure how to determine if his win should receive more context in the lede than that. If it should, it should be this fact, given that at this time, it is the one RS think is the most significant element of his win. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 12:59, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

If it is not in the body it should, not be in the lead, however, I am gonna suggest the fact this is an unconvertible fact, means it has a place in the article. Where as it is debatable if the claim this was historic does. I said I was out of here with a firm no to including this, it remains a no. Slatersteven (talk) 13:08, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

We don't have to describe it as "historic" etc, if that would be UNDUE. Simply "multiple media outlets characterized his win as a political comeback" could work. Whatever we choose if we choose to include something it should a) be in the body, b) reflect the emphasis placed by RS, including reflecting to how RS describe it as a political comeback. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:23, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

I will also convert vote totals among minority voters (when they're fully counted and considered official) to percentages with a link to the official numbers to show his historic performance among minority voters for a republican candidate. This will add some balance to the sensationalized, prevailing media narrative of DJT's supporters being "white supremacist, misogynistic, Nazi, etc, etc" garbage they continue to spew forth while also showing a growing realignment of political bases within the parties. I can add this to whatever section it would fit best in to show a bit more fairness or balance to the article/page. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 09:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

IP, Yes it was indeed the biggest political comeback in US history. Would support a write-up of it, in the page. Afterall, it's only an opinion (also) that Trump is (for the moment, at least) considered the worst president in US history. GoodDay (talk) 13:10, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Users need to read wp:lead, the lead is not there for emphasis it is a summary of our article. If it aint in the body it aint going in the lead, and one line can't be summarized with one line. Slatersteven (talk) 12:30, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Then let's remove the election victory as a whole, and his being the second president elected to non-consecutive terms, as they're both only discussed in one line in the body... It's a highly notable point in his political career that is widely agreed upon by major, reliable sources. Mb2437 (talk) 12:41, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

BY all means remove them if you wish. But two wrongs do not make a right.Slatersteven (talk) 12:43, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:LEAD doesn't even support your argument. "As in the body of the article itself, the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." This is a major point in establishing his political notability, and widely supported by reliable, published sources. Many of the points in this lead are also concisely noted in the body, exactly how this article is meant to be written given the extent of his career. Mb2437 (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Try the first line "In Wikipedia, the lead section is an introduction to an article and a summary of its most important contents. " and " (latter on) "Significant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text.", This is not a "basic fact". Slatersteven (talk) 12:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

It is covered in the body, and should be expanded to include other sources. It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources. CNN ABC AP BBC Keep in mind I'm not agreeing with the "biggest" wording. Mb2437 (talk) 13:03, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

It is a basic fact if firmly agreed upon by reliable sources see Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not using that to argue its inclusion; it should be included because it's one of the most notable points in his political career, such to the point where it should even be in the lead. Their point was it was not a basic fact, and thus should not be included, which is simply false given that many reliable sources disagree. Mb2437 (talk) 13:16, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

So again, a firm no. Time for an RFC? Slatersteven (talk) 12:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Could we give this a bit more time before we escalate? I will have a go at working on the body. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 13:01, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

FORUM

There has been a lot of WP:NOTFORUM vio going on here of late. Including a number of experienced editors. I'm curious:

• Do these editors know they are violating policy?
• If so, can they explain themselves please?
• What, if anything, should be done about this? ―Mandruss ☎ 12:17, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

• I think what we maybe seeing is good faith efforts to deal with requests that are not policy compliant themselves. Slatersteven (talk) 12:25, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Go WP:TROUT them or something </sarcasm>. It’s incredibly unlikely anyone is going to be sanctioned by an admin for anything short of uncivil behavior. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:28, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I must have missed when somebody was sanctioned for uncivil behavior without a trip to WP:AE. But I'm not looking for sanctions.

I mean, we sometimes collapse NOTFORUM vios, but that's not really practical when it's interspersed with constructive non-vios every fourth comment. Even if I did that, I'd look like a self-appointed Talk Page Sheriff unless I had help from a few others. There's just too much of it going on, and I know better than to piss off ten experienced editors at the same time. ―Mandruss ☎ 14:35, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Yea, that's kind of what I meant, I've never seen anyone sanctioned at AE for NOTFORUM (that wasn't a blatent civility issue as well). I digress though, you kind of highlighted why there's not much we can do. Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:44, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Tell ya what. I'll start posting on user talk pages and see if that has any beneficial effect. I could use some help with that, by anybody who cares about keeping this page functional. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:52, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I am moving discussion of FORUM and BITING to this more relevant thread. Context is an IP apologizing for not knowing how to link to sources. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:27, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Appreciate the help with how to link articles Bob, thank you and sorry to others for not linking directly. 104.230.247.132 (talk) 13:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM: not a help desk for obtaining instructions or technical assistance. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:59, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

It may be WP:NOTFORUM but its just a small tip in a relevant discussion to help the IP out, its nice to just be helpful sometimes and may encourage them to make an account and be an active participant in the project; WP:NOBITING Artem...^Talk 21:50, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Best practice here would be to post a note on their user talk page to avoiding BITING and FORUM. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:18, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

There was a discussion of this at the policy talk page in the section Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#4. Discussion forums. It appears it is OK to make a brief, related, helpful technical suggestion on the article talk page for the benefit of various editors. Cheers, Bob K31416 (talk) 14:26, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Latter half of the opening paragraph

Does anybody have a formal proposal for the second half of the opening paragraph? That's all the info relating to the 2024 election results? It's been ten days & counting, so we need a stable version in place, between now & the inauguration day. PS - For goodness sake, don't add "current" or "currently" before (if included) "president-elect", as it's a useless descriptive. GoodDay (talk) 04:50, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly support forming a consensus to put an end to all the back-and-forth (stabilize). Since it would be a temporary consensus as you say, it wouldn't need a consensus list item, just an archived discussion (e.g., this one) that we could point to in a DO NOT CHANGE hidden comment. No opinion on content. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Biography organization

Hi Space4Time3Continuum2x, I saw you moved the discussion of religion and family back to "Early life and education". I don't think there are any good options here, as the article is not structed as a biography. The article to compare to would be Ronald Reagan, as he is the most recent president that is a featured article (and helpfully he also had a prominent pre-political career). Some thoughts on reorganization to better meet this I'd like to hear your perspective on:

• Break up the section Donald Trump#Wealth, placing most into Business career where it is relevant.
• Break up religion paragraph into the bits relevant to early life, and then a brief discussion in presidency discussing the relevance to his relationship to religion as president.
• Ronald Reagan#Marriages and children is placed a lot more chronologically.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 18:37, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I'll get back to this tomorrow, too complicated for my addled brain today. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:58, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm generally not too fond of "one size fits all", including conform[ing] to others on Wikipedia, for example Donald Trump's two predecessors, Barack Obama and Joe Biden. This is the edit that moved "Personal life" to the top of the body on February 1, 2017. I wasn't editing here at the time, briefly looked for discussions in the archive but nothing jumped out at me. I never questioned it because it made sense to me: family, wealth, tabloid and later media personality — it's all interwoven and difficult to separate into business/profession/political positions (whatever the subject is notable for) and personal life with spouse(s)/kids, hobbies, etc. Seven years later one editor shows up, questions it, and it gets fixed a few minutes later (see "MOS Layout", above). Good process — no dillydallying with time-consuming discussions.

MOS:SNO also says: Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary, Trump's personal details have been part of his public persona for more than 40 years and shouldn't relegated to the end of his bio like an afterthought. I moved them back to the top of the body, along with the "Racial views" and "Misogyny/sexual misconduct" sections that had been newly added to the "Personal life" section. I agree that these two sections also deal with views and conduct predating his first term as president and continued throughout his political career. The "Public image" section is gone, so there's no other logical place for these sections. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:47, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm still thinking about the best way to address this. I will narrowly respond in two ways:

• Racial views and misogyny could be folded under a s section 2 heading #Prejudice.
• There is an ongoing discussion at Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope which is relevant and I hope you'll participate. It's responding to me cutting down the article 20% of its size (seen here) based on the principles laid out at the top of the discussion.

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Disagree, Space4Time3Continuum2x. I object to organizing this article based on your personal preferences. Please read all of MOS:SNO. Exceptions are given and this isn't one of them. Why didn't you contribute to the MOS Layout thread? -SusanLesch (talk) 20:36, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I've spent a bit of time thinking through my objection to commenting further at this time, and it has been resolved. Susan sums up my thoughts here. We can reopen to the MOS Layout thread before it's archived to discuss further or simply restore. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Already gone.[50] ―Mandruss ☎ 21:05, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

My mistake, thanks for the correction. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Mandruss, is there a procedure to restore the MOS Layout thread? I'll assume that Space4Time3Continuum2x was occupied elsewhere and didn't get a chance to weigh in. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:42, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

No procedure, just do it (using copy-and-paste) or ask someone to do it. I did it. ―Mandruss ☎ 17:24, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

based on your personal preferences — the layout predates my first edit of this article by more than a year. Considering the number of editors who have collaborated on this page, there have been astoundingly few objections to this particular feature (none, until now, that I recall). The full text of MOS:SNO is Wiki-vague, as usual: Because of the diversity of subjects it covers, Wikipedia has no general standard or guideline regarding the order of section headings within the body of an article. The usual practice is to order body sections based on the precedent of similar articles. For exceptions, see Specialized layout below. No general standard or guideline vs. usual practice. I think you may have misunderstood the "exceptions". They are types of articles where layouts are generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow though occasional exceptions may apply. Bolding added by me, i.e., even for these exeptions, where editors are advised to "attempt to follow the generally accepted standard", "occasional exceptions may apply". And about a precedent you cited in "MOS Layout": Barack Obama has an "Early life and career" section with "Family and personal life" following "Education". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:34, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

By the time I saw the "MOS Layout" thread, it had already been closed saying Rolling "fixed" the flagged grave violation of — uh — usual practice within minutes. Bold edit, I challenged, needs to be discussed. I've already commented here, don't see any point in reopening "MOS Layout". Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:55, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Space4Time3Continuum2x:

• The edit that moved up "Personal life" is from a blocked possible sockpuppet.
• Donald Trump is a human being like everybody else. What section is it that you want to front load?
• We have some leeway. Do you want to restore a §Public image section?
• We had an objection just yesterday to starting with §Personal details.
• Right you are that MOS:SNO is vague. But it's an indication of why most Wikipedia biographies begin with §Early life. More examples: Louis XIV, Elon Musk, Mao Zedong, Nelson Mandela, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Vladimir Lenin, Charles de Gaulle, Joe Biden and Ronald Reagan. George W. Bush and Barack Obama both have §Personal life higher than I'd like, and they both begin with §Early life and career. -SusanLesch (talk) 20:09, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

• I don't have anything to add here beyond that we still have a section for Public image: Assessments#Public. Content was moved out of #Public image for the reasons laid out in most depth at Talk:Public image of Donald Trump#Article scope; I earnestly hope you both could weigh in at that discussion as it needs more eyes and as you can see it affects this article. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:32, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

I looked at the 10 or so edits the alleged sockpuppet made at this article. They all improved the formatting or fixed poor wording, e.g., replacing "2000 presidential candidacy" with "2000 presidential campaign". The "objection" replaced "Personal details" with "Early and personal life" — I can live with that. The editor did not object to the positioning of the material I restored to that section at the top of the body. I don't know what to make of Trump is a human being and front load. Are you accusing me of something? both have §Personal life higher than I'd like — sounds like personal preferences to me. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x? May we close the restored MOS Layout thread? -SusanLesch (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: No, there's no Public image section, only a Public subsection of Assessment. I won't be contributing to your thread on Article scope which discussed a narrow issue (orange skin). I am spread too thin over several threads. Thank you. -SusanLesch (talk) 16:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x, nobody is accusing you of anything.

• Your personal preferences show ("I can live with that") same as me (I don't plan to edit Barack Obama or George W. Bush to match my prefs.).
• May we close the restored MOS Layout thread?
• To answer your question, Trump is just a man, and he merits a biography that's no different from everybody else's. (Here's the dictionary definition of front load.) I'm just asking you, what sections do you want to come early? Do you want to add a §Public image section? -SusanLesch (talk) 18:57, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I've changed Assessment#Public to Assessment#Public image in this diff. SusanLesch It's on me cutting 80% of the article, orange skin is just an example. No fuss if you are spread too thin, what you have been able to spare is appreciated. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x, I removed the Religion section because it was word for word the same as a paragraph in Early life. If Religion is one of the sections you want front-loaded then I'll move the first one down (it has all the original refs). I asked for the MOS Layout thread to be archived. Can you please answer which sections you want to appear at the top? Right now we look bad with "Early and personal life: Early life, education, family" which is empty and repetitive. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Space4Time3Continuum2x at this time, we have two editors in favor of the rearranged section order and one against. This is a very very weak majority, especially in light of the long-standing page consensus. How would you like us to proceed? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 17:00, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to rename Racial views of Donald Trump

There is currently a proposal to rename Racial views of Trump at § Changing the title. Editors here are invited to participate: this will impact the section heading "Racial views" in this article per summary style Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Recommended biography

Can anyone here recommend a Trump biography? My plan is to read one good biography. Looking at the bibliography, maybe What Were We Thinking, or one by Philip Rucker and Carol Leonnig, Jonathan Karl, Bob Woodward, Jennifer Mercieca, Maggie Haberman, Fred Trump III, ? Other than a historical bias learned from my mother, I have no horse in this race, and am trying to keep an open mind. -SusanLesch (talk) 14:17, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:NOTFORUM Farkle Griffen (talk) 17:05, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Pardon me, Farkle Griffen. I daresay this article comes up short and I'm offering to help. Book sources are an impoverished list given the number of books about the subject. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:12, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Taking my marbles and going home. I settled on Mr. Lozada's What Were We Thinking. -SusanLesch (talk) 17:23, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

That's fine, and we appreciate your efforts, but a Wikipedia talk page just isn't the place for this Farkle Griffen (talk) 17:34, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Farkle Griffen I think Susan was inquiring as to the quality (reliable, comprehensive) of high-quality sourcing on the subject for the purposes of editing, which is an important function of talk pages. Perhaps Susan could have rewritten to be clearer as to her intent, but in cases where intent is unclear to us, it's best to assume good faith (which can involve asking an editor for clarification of they believe their comment is on topic).

SusanLesch I don't think What Were We Thinking is a biography in the strictest sense. From my similarly limited familiarity with sourcing on the subject, it seems like biography, particularly pre-presidency, will have to be sourced primarily to biographies 2017 and before such as Trump Revealed.

For a retrospective assessment of the Trump presidency and afterwards, which is necessary for assessing what reliable sources put emphasis on, the best sources I have seen aren't necessarily exclusively about Trump, but have a chapter on broad-strokes of his presidency. For domestic policy for example, see The Presidency and Domestic Policy: Comparing Leadership Styles, FDR to Biden. I'm interested to read The Presidency of Donald J. Trump: A First Historical Assessment, but reading reviews on such a book will be particularly important: as I read themread them (books) I'll create stubs for them to share findings with other editors like I have with Cocoa and Unsavory Truth. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:01, 16 November 2024 (UTC)Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Farkle Griffen (talk) 20:11, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Farkle Griffen, sorry for the misunderstanding. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Questions for you, Rollinginhisgrave. First, the book sources seemed to be slim pickings given the number of books about Trump. I appreciate the work that editors have done using Kranish & Fisher, which does appear to have been helpful. I am comfortable with Leonnig, Woodward, Haberman, and am interested in Jennifer Mercieca because it looks like she studied Trump's speech patterns. Decided on Lozada because, for one thing, I don't wish to become a scholar of Trump. Lozada is a Pulitzer-winner who was able to sort through the 150 or more books about Trump. I could be mistaken easily, and it would help to have a guide. Don't you agree his perspective would be useful? Is the Zelizer book you mention here a collection of essays/papers? Another good way to get a birds eye view. Sorry I can't invest the time in something like The Presidency and Domestic Policy. One other criterion: if any of the bibliography list is available free on the Internet Archive that would be a selling point. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

SusanLesch The book sources are certainly slim. I expanded the use of Kranish & Fisher a few days ago as a proof of concept in replacing news articles with books, but I will revise. If we're covering the presidency, there's two elements of sources to prioritise: retrospective and academic.

• Haberman is interesting, I haven't read about it. Might be the best for biographical details.
• Mercieca is interesting as well; we're a few years out so might be good to read recent reviews.
• Lozada would be useful to the page, but I think it serves a different purpose to what you identified in your first two sentences.
• Yes, Zelizer is a collection of essays; I'm most looking forward to any introductory material which attempts to synthesise.
• The Presidency and Domestic Policy would probably actually be the easiest, since it is one chapter which is relevant (the one on Trump).

I'm sc(k)eptical much will be available on the Internet Archive; it's been cut down mercilessly recently. If you need access to a source, email me. Hopefully I'll be able to construct an annotated source list over the next few weeks. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 07:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I'm leaning to Haberman because you thought it sounds interesting. -SusanLesch (talk) 13:57, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Suggest we don't underestimate the Internet Archive. I went through the first half of the bibliography and found these. Most of the others are available only to persons with print disabilities.

• Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success
• The case against Trump
• Where's Trump? Find Donald Trump in his race to the White House
• Man Enough? Donald Trump, Hillary Clinton, and the Politics of Presidential Masculinity
• The Little Book of Trumpisms
• Trump: A Graphic Biography
• If Only They Didn't Speak English
• Big Agenda: President Trump's Plan to Save America
• Choosing Donald Trump: God, Anger, Hope, and Why Christian Conservatives Supported Him
• In America: Tales from Trump Country
• Trump: Anatomy of a Monstrosity
• Trump This! The Life and Times of Donald Trump, An Unauthorized Biography

-SusanLesch (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this, very helpful. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:31, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Unfortunately our luck ran out after the oldest 50 books. The rest of the list found only:

• in Arabic only: Fire and Fury: Inside the Trump White House
• audio: Donald Trump v. The United States

So overall I tend to agree with you about the Internet Archive's utility for this project. Maybe something will help. -SusanLesch (talk) 00:40, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Reverting consensus 20

Bringing two comments down from Talk:Donald Trump#Motion to repeal Current Consensus item 8 to a new thread. They are addressing the sentence His election and policies sparked numerous protests in the lede.

I have no strong opinion on this one. But the mention of protests after his first election 100% is UNDUE in the lead. R. G. Checkers talk 00:08, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree on protests. They didn't lead anywhere.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:24, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Support The lead in general needs to be trimmed, I think we should focus on the information with the most WP:RS coverage for the lead. I am not sure how we will determine what constitutes as "enough RS coverage for the lead," perhaps we will need another topic for this. Artem...^Talk 02:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Some of us think it should be "enough RS coverage for the body" and "enough body coverage for the lead". Body comes first. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that would be a good determining factor. I suppose it would then be down to "What constitutes enough body coverage for the lead?" But I am again getting off topic and will leave this for another discussion Artem...^Talk 02:53, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

The question is not of volume, but of quality. We need retrospective coverage that puts it into the context of his life/presidency to determine emphasis. And from this, as Mandruss notes, lead follows body. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 03:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support - Clearly UNDUE and maybe even RECENTISM that should have never been in the lead in the first place, and certainly not now. R. G. Checkers ^talk 03:40, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
  • Could you expand on why you understand this fact is given undue weight? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:59, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

    Protests happen for every president. Just because the protest had a more people come does not mean it needs to be I in the lead. R. G. Checkers ^talk 03:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

    Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. What does your comment have to do with UNDUE? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:44, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

    Look at this sentence instead: Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to the depth of detail, the quantity of text, prominence of placement, the juxtaposition of statements, and the use of imagery R. G. Checkers ^talk 05:57, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

    An article can discuss information in great depth, in a lot of text etc while still maintaining a neutral point of view. The way it can do that is by fairly represent[ing] all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources. You need to determine the emphasis of reliable sources first: looking at information and thinking "that's a lot of detail [for something like this or otherwise]" is insufficient for determining if it is DUE. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 09:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support removal Needs to be significant trimming in the lead to fit in the 2nd term info. The protests against him are less important to cover relative to other infomation in the lead.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 06:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose, as I think it's fair to say his latest election has also led to protests. Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose. "Other stuff may happen that we may want to include" isn't a rationale for removing. The protests included the largest single-day protest in U.S. history at the time (it's been surpassed by the George Floyd protests in 2020). AFAIK, no other president's election has resulted in protests, especially not with the protesters far outnumbering the spectators at the inauguration. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:01, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  It is mentioned briefly in the body. This is not defining of trump himself. We don't need room for things that are going to happen we need room for things that already have happened. R. G. Checkers ^talk 03:28, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Question What has changed to constitute this change? DN (talk) 04:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  We (with Farkle Griffen doing most of the heavy lifting) are finally taking on serious lead reduction, essentially raising the DUE bar for the lead. The lead is down 40% from two weeks ago. Under discussion is whether this item still clears the bar. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support the poor pussyhats didn't accomplish anything. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Neither did Trump's photo-ops with Kim Jong Un (consensus 44). Misogyny still rules but, for a brief moment, by sheer numbers, it looked as though there was hope. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 15:47, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• Support. A little bit below the threshold of importance for inclusion in the lead. — Goszei (talk) 20:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
• Support, not particularly notable. Irruptive Creditor (talk) 08:01, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

PEIS revisited, yet again

According to my experimentation, the addition of ~12 typical-sized citations would cause the article to exceed the system-imposed WP:PEIS limit. When that happens, templates near the bottom of the article start breaking with an error message. Otherwise, the article is fine; nobody is even aware there's a problem unless they scroll down there and see the message. Still, it's a problem worth addressing and I think it's better to be proactive than reactive about this. Possible solutions:

• Reduce WP:OVERCITE.
• Remove content, with the associated citations.
• This was a recurring problem in the past (see archive). Eventually, someone removed one or more navboxes at the bottom, which freed up a huge amount of PEIS. I don't know if there is more potential reduction in that area.

Other kinds of templates will also contribute to PEIS, but I don't know how much without looking into it more.

Anyway, the PEIS limit would appear to impose an arbitrary upper limit on article size, assuming the number of citations is roughly proportional to article size—and this article is very close to that limit. Maybe that's not all bad? ―Mandruss ☎ 11:35, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Lots of overciting, been meaning to tackle it but it's a lot of reading. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 16:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Did the change to short footnotes cause any part of this? If so I'm sorry. I will try to lessen overcites when I run across them. -SusanLesch (talk) 19:48, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I see a total of six footnotes. Not a significant contribution to the problem. Thanks for asking. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:51, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Oh boy. Page size said 15672 words today, which is over the top limit at WP:SPLIT. I have never seen an article fail but golly, I'm retracting my proposal to rewrite Early life without prejudice. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm possibly looking in the next weeks at proposing we apply The Earth Test, which should be appropriate given the extensive use of Template:Main. Does anyone here have initial rejections of this as my activities are lining up with that direction. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Looks like an arbitrary limit, and Wikipedia hates arbitrary limits. Why not get us as far as possible into summary style and then see where we are? That might well be all we need in the area of article reduction. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Before we can summarize, we need to know how much detail the summary should contain. Two sections summarizing their main articles in the same number of words will certainly violate NPOV by giving undue weight to a topic. When we know how many words will cover the subject overall, when we are summarizing a section we can know if we are allocating 5% or 10% of the wordcount and be make decisions on detail of summary that align with NPOV. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:33, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Update: Edits have increased the ~12 to ~37. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Merge the offices in Trump's infobox?

Here is a new infobox I've designed in my user sandbox.

Proposed infobox. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Donald Trump Official portrait, 2017 45th & 47th President of the United States Assuming office January 20, 2025 Vice President JD Vance (elect) Succeeding Joe Biden In office January 20, 2017 – January 20, 2021 Vice President Mike Pence Preceded by Barack Obama Succeeded by Joe Biden Personal details Born Donald John Trump (1946-06-14) June 14, 1946 Queens, New York City, U.S. Political party Republican (1987–1999, 2009–2011, 2012–present) Other political affiliations Reform (1999–2001) Democratic (2001–2009) Independent (2011–2012) Spouses Ivana Zelníčková ​ ​ (m. 1977; div. 1990)​ Marla Maples ​ ​ (m. 1993; div. 1999)​ Melania Knauss ​ (m. 2005)​ Children Donald Jr. Ivanka Eric Tiffany Barron Parents Fred Trump (father) Mary Anne Trump (mother) Relatives Trump family Alma mater University of Pennsylvania (BS) Occupation Politician businessman media personality Awards Full list Signature Website Campaign website Presidential library White House archives

WorldMappings (talk) 21:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to add brief description of Trumpism in lead

Should the lead contain a brief description of Trumpism, which it currently mentions without further explanation? I added one, but Farkle Griffin reverted me, citing length concerns. I agree with the recent lead cuts, but the statement "Trump created Trumpism" without further description is meaningless, and I think it benefits readers to briefly explain what he stands for politically without requiring them to click through and read the lead of the other article. Here is a brief, 12-word proposal: "In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which led to the Trumpism movement, characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, protectionism, and loyalty to himself." The specifics are up for debate. — Goszei (talk) 21:55, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I completely disagree with this proposal. JacktheBrown (talk) 15:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neither support nor oppose here, but what are your thoughts on simply including it in a footnote? Farkle Griffen (talk) 22:15, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it's important enough to state outside of a footnote. — Goszei (talk) 22:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Maybe something along these lines?

"In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign, during which he promoted nationalism, anti-establishment rhetoric, and conspiracy theories. His policies and rhetoric led to the Trumpism movement." Rexxx7777 (talk) 22:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I prefer a mention of "right-wing populism" to "anti-establishment rhetoric", as that is how this article currently describes his positions; the other article also helps connect Trump's rise to the global context of emergent figures such as Viktor Orbán, Giorgia Meloni, Jair Bolsonaro, and Javier Milei. I also think mentioning "'America First' nationalism" is better than "nationalism" alone, as that article helps explain the non-interventionist and economic protectionist elements of Trump's brand of nationalism, which is not implied by simply stating "nationalism". — Goszei (talk) 23:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• At a minimum, this should be added to the body before considering adding it to the lede. Trumpism is not really discussed in the body. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  Perhaps not all in one sentence, but the body does in fact mention Trumpism, right-wing populism, America First, and protectionism, and even his cult of personality. I think my proposal does a good job of tying this all together. — Goszei (talk) 23:46, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  It doesn't relate these to Trumpism. It also doesn't mention the "loyalty to himself" comment. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  What is Trumpism but the rhetoric, ideology, and political actions of Donald Trump, which form the bulk of this article's content? The last part about "loyalty" I am less confident in than the rest, and will bow to opposition to it. — Goszei (talk) 23:57, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

  I am not opposed, I am just asking that the lede doesn't develop separately from the body per the manual of style. The lede shouldn't be the only place that defines Trumpism. defines Trumpism. How you define Trumpism is also at odds with the lede of Trumpism: a political movement in the United States that comprises the political ideologies associated with Donald Trump and his political base.Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC) Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I am slightly modifying my proposal to this: In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which gave rise to Trumpism, a political movement characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism. — Goszei (talk) 00:14, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I think loyalty to Trump is an important part of it.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's kinda implied by the name. Let's give our readers the credit of putting together that "Trumpists" are loyal to Trump Farkle Griffen (talk) 05:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

For a few weeks we have been discussing the need for this kind of addition in multiple talk pages. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @Nikkimaria reverted them with explanation "overdetail". I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them.

Goszei edit:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which gave rise to Trumpism, a political movement characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism.

the reversion by Nikkimaria:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which led to the Trumpism movement.

Also another detail that said "and focused on luxury accommodation" was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in.

Similarly to what @Farkle Griffen is saying I do not believe that the "loyal to himself" part is needed.

I've done 2 reversions in the last 24h so I'll avoid going further, someone else can reinsert these if there is consensus. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:31, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The lead does not need any more detail, particularly (as noted above) detail that is not in the body. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:33, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

but they do are in the body. you could argue there is a repetition from general rethoric before being a president to the official acts, but it's different imo.

and him having mostly luxury accomodations has now completelly disappeared, I'll edit that in since I don't see any reason to remove it and gives proper context. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 00:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Added the details back by connecting them directly on Trump and not on Trumpism, as it was noted here before. Should be good now. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 00:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Nope, definitely not good, those additions should be reverted until you've got consensus for them. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The "luxury accomodations" part was present in the lead for a very long time in an even more developed form, so why revert that? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:36, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the main diff that has been reverted by @Moxy

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism, which led to the Trumpism movement.

How do other editors feel? Is this relevant enough for the lead and properly present on body?

@Goszei @Farkle Griffen @Rexxx7777 @Rollinginhisgrave @Jack Upland (editors that participated in this discussion) @JacktheBrown @Mandruss @Thistheyear2023 @Димитрий Улянов Иванов @PizzaKing13 @750h+ @BootsED (editors of the newer 50 edits)

If you got the time please motivate your reasoning in favor or against this addition, so that we can look for consensus. If this is too close I will consider doing a RfC for it. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:50, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd support it's inclusion as it appears to be an accurate description. Thanks, Димитрий Улянов Иванов (talk) 14:41, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Since you pinged me, I'll reply. I completely agree with Moxy's edit, and therefore disagree with the inclusion of content. JacktheBrown (talk) 14:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the most important thing is that it keeps mention of Trumpism. I like the edit before it was removed, and thus support the inclusion. If the consensus is to remove the edit, as long as Trumpism is still mentioned, I am okay with it. The page for Trumpism mentions how it is right-wing populist as nationalist. BootsED (talk) 20:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

What would this ass we do not already say? Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

For me it is a mather of order and logical steps. This is what he said and did before being a president, what made him popular. The formulation is in the right place in the lead (second paragraph) and feels more direct that just refering to policies later on. This is consistent with the lead of Hitler, for exemple (no comparison between individuals but of how to develop an high quality complex lead). Antisemitism is mentioned in paragraph 2, while he was not in power, despite references to his antisemitic policies obviously having a spot later.

For me, this how a lead should be written. Anything else is sloppy and with major logical holes. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 14:02, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

So this would not add anything, just change the order of the lead? Slatersteven (talk) 14:08, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

muslim ban formulation on lead

@Farkle Griffen Since I did one revert already on the page I will refrain to go further and I am opening a discussion to discuss that precise phrase.

This is the version that was recently added and that I find the best:

In his first term, he ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries

and this is yours:

In his first term, he ordered the "Muslim ban" limiting refugees

I really feel like the first formulation is extremelly more clear. It manages to say in a couple of words what that executive order was about, previous formulations and your latest are difficult to grasp for someone who is not already familiar with the topic.

Why did you feel the need for the change? And what do other editors think? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 23:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I also want to point out that the current lead is not too long. Editors have done an egregious job in the last few weeks to shorten it and put elements in the right place. So, in my opinion, that should not be an argument to prefer one over the other. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 00:05, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I support the original version. The new version is not clear enough. QuicoleJR (talk) 01:00, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree. The original version is more comprehensive at the cost of only a few extra words if length is concerned. Artem...^Talk 01:23, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I only re-added it because your edit summary removing it had to do with a different edit. You're still free to revert it now that you've included an explanation.

However, to respond to your post here, I don't see what information it loses, and it also removes a somewhat unclear link "ordered a travel ban" in favor if the order's common name.

If anything I think this is clearer. The point of the bill was to limit Muslim immigration, but, as previously phrased it sounds like he ordered a general travel ban that just so happened to limit refugees. Using the order's name adds information, and makes this point better and much more concisely. Farkle Griffen (talk) 01:26, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

The way the first reads to me implies that it limits Muslim refugees from entering the country by placing the limitation on Muslim-majority countries. The second one, to me more-so implies an outright ban to all Muslim immigration which would in turn limit refugees Artem...^Talk 01:34, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

That's fair. I still think the item's name should be used instead of the current link.

But also, wouldn't this reasoning extend to the other items in the sentence as well?

"Trump ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries, funded the Trump wall expanding the U.S.–Mexico border wall, and implemented a family separation policy at the border, separating migrant children and parents." Farkle Griffen (talk) 01:54, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

We need to achieve a balance between brevity and accurately explaining the policies. "Funded the Trump wall" borders on too vague as well, and doesn't convey that the wall already existed and that he expanded its length. My preferred wording here is ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, expanded the wall on the U.S.–Mexico border, and implemented a family separation policy. — Goszei (talk) 02:04, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

"We need to achieve a balance"

Are you suggesting there's a way to measure that balance? Or are you just saying yours is perfectly balanced and we should use that? Farkle Griffen (talk) 05:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

My proposal contains as many words as I think are needed to explain without being inaccurate or misleading. Other editors can disagree, especially on the "misleading" part, and propose their own. — Goszei (talk) 05:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree with what Goszei is doing, trying to refer to policy not only with a catch all journalistic nickname but actually working on a proper, short summarization that fairly represents the policy. One is easier to do but actually useless to the reader, the other is complex but carries meaning. His latest proposition, ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees, seems good to me. Also because there were ecceptions on the list of countries targeted. I will edit that in and let's see if we can agree on it. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 11:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Muslim ban falsely implies that the ban applied to all Muslims, but ordered a travel ban limiting refugees from Muslim-majority countries also misrepresents what the order actually did (it suspended all entry from those countries, not just refugees, which was a separate provision). If we want to indicate that the ban targeted Muslims (which civil rights organizations and similar groups claimed was its not-so-secret purpose, which was supported by reporting such as [51]), perhaps we could compromise with the wording ordered a travel ban targeting Muslims and refugees. — Goszei (talk) 01:47, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I think that that might sound too vague, too. How about

ordered a travel ban disallowing the people of several Muslim-majority nations entry into the U.S.

This will ensure that readers don’t think he ordered a travel ban against all Muslims and refugees. This could bring confusion that the ban disallowed access to all refugees and Muslims from countries that are not Muslim-majority. This suggestion rather clarified that the target was the people and refugees of Muslim-majority countries specifically, including Muslims and refugees. UserMemer (chat) Tribs 13:32, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I am personally against removing the word "refugee" which carries meaning, I also think that the word "targetting" is very good, it could find a spot in your version, which is just too long also. I don't think that we can go too deep into the nation part analysis of the ban, even though I find it relevant, some muslim majority countries were excluded for exemple. In the end I think the current shortening is both specific and open enough to click on the link and see more about the countries dynamic. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:48, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Has Trump been convicted of a felony?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The jury had merely returned a verdict. Only a judge can convict someone - a judge can still throw the jury's verdict away. While extremely rare, it can happen.

Wikipedia's definition agrees: "A convict is "a person found guilty of a crime and sentenced by a court" or "a person serving a sentence in prison". Source: Convict - Wikipedia

Notice it says "found guilty of a crime" AND "sentenced by a court." Only a judge can do the latter.

According to the American Bar: "The decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision - that is, an order that it be filed in public records." Source: How Courts Work - Americanbar.org "Judgement"

So no, Trump has not been convicted of any felony. All that has happened is a jury has returned a verdict. Please change the lede to reflect Wikipedia's own definition of convict as well as basic knowledge of how courts work. Thank you! McDonaldsGuy (talk) 08:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

This has already been explained to you elsewhere on this page, but here goes with another attempt.

As I told you, Wikipedia may not be used as a source for itself. So why did you link to that Wikipedia article again?

As someone else told you, "convicted" (verb or adjective) and "convict" (noun) are not equivalent. One can be convicted without being a convict. Is English your first language?

See Wikipedia:No original research. Excerpted from its very first paragraph:

To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support the material being presented.

You have yet to present a single reliable source that mentions Trump and says he has not been convicted. Therefore the "directly" requirement has not been met.

I will close this as resolved if no one else has commented within 24 hours. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:18, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Did you not see the American Bar website I posted? Lol

Convict is a noun: "CONVICT is a person convicted of and under sentence for a crime. How to use convict in a sentence."

You do know the judge can throw away the verdict right? The fact is, he's not convicted of a felony. Prove he is if you can. Show me. It's not up to me to prove a negative - it's up to you to prove a positive. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:33, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Since you apparently have a hearing problem, I'm not wasting any more of my time trying to speak to you. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:39, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

If Trump is a convicted felon, he will not be able to travel to the UK and Canada.

Will he be able to travel to the UK and Canada? Yes or no?

Why Donald Trump Isn't A Convicted Felon (Yet)

[52]https://www.foxnews.com/politics/yale-law-professor-outlines-potential-trump-legal-strategy-following-guilty-verdict-nation-needs?msockid=1248a7002eb9682a14dcb4682f186918 "You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt." McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:48, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

FINALLY, you produce sources that at least meet the minimum policy requirements. Now it's a question of WP:WEIGHT, since many other reliable sources say he's been convicted. I'll leave that to others. ―Mandruss ☎ 13:09, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Here I will add some references, I can see you have kinda had an unpleasant time with this topic, I will try and be more prim and proper with my efforts. The most relevant section here is "Despite media reports, Rubenfeld insisted that it’s “not true” that Trump is already a “convicted felon,” arguing that one is “not a convicted felon because of a jury verdict.”

“You are not convicted until the judge enters that judgment of guilt. Now, in New York, it’s very likely that Judge Merchan will enter that judgment of guilt against Trump on the same day that he issues sentencing. That’d be July 11th.” https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ Liger404 (talk) 13:21, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

See WP:NYPOST... DN (talk) 07:13, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I see you deleted my question, fair enough it is here. I saw it explained by a US lawyer that one cannot be a felon until sentencing, especially as that can involve discharge without conviction. And its not just a technicality, the restrictions of felony status don't kick in until that time. I asked the AI and it says the same. And the previous commentator has a few references saying the exact same. It seems the most correct phrase is that he "has been found guilty". Liger404 (talk) 13:15, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

This is somewhat accurate, to provide a bit more clarity: conviction does not occur until after sentencing, with there still being time for additional legal proceedings such as appeals beforehand - so yes he has technically been found guilty by a jury, however he is not a convicted felon Artem...^Talk 21:50, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

He has been convicted, he has just not been sentenced, which is independent of a guilty verdict. Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I have to agree with @McDonaldsGuy here

From my understanding Trump has been found guilty by a jury in certain cases, but he has not yet been formally convicted because the judge has not entered a conviction by imposing a sentence. Conviction only occurs after sentencing, and in some cases, there may be additional legal proceedings (like appeals) before that happens. Artem...^Talk 21:37, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I think the point being missed is that our understanding has nothing to do with it. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:53, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Well this is not really an understanding but more-so just the way that the legal system works... I have not yet had a look at the sources to see what WP:RS is supporting that he is a convicted felon, but if it is just news outlets then I would not think we should rely on them for something such as this for the sake of accuracy. Wikipedia does not have any concrete rules but more-so guidelines so if we are reporting on what RS has said about this, then I think we should do so with the indisputable legal facts in mind and use sources that know what they are talking about rather than just regurgitating what a reporter is claiming

If there is something I have missed or overlooked then please disregard my comment Artem...^Talk 22:03, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

No, you may have a point. I vaguely recall doing something like that once or twice in the distant past. This thread got off to a bad start because the OP has no editing knowledge, and the first five comments are basically useless distractions. I think an experienced editor should start a new thread and we could close this one. It's likely to end up a long one. ―Mandruss ☎ 04:39, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I understood the entire time you wanted me to link to a news source or something like that. But I shouldn't have had to because Trump not being a convicted felon is truism. It doesn't need a source. It'd be like asking for a source that Trump isn't Santa Claus or a German citizen. It's just a fact he isn't. You essentially put the burden of proof on the defendant. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Yeah it is just news outlets. But I added and the other guys added news outlets quoting a legal professor showing it isn't true. And then we have the Bar association, where we can see the professor is right. I will attach the sequence of trial. Here is the key bit. "The decision of the jury doesn t take effect until the judge enters a judgment on the decision - that is, an order that it be filed in public records.". And that hasn't happened yet. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/public_education/resources/law_related_education_network/how_courts_work/judgment/ Liger404 (talk) 23:10, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Liger404 Thankyou for your work here. Unfortunately, what you're describing above is considered original research: have a read of the "Smith and Jones" example in that page. None of the secondary sources you or other editors have found at this time are considered reliable, I've had a quick look and couldn't find anything either. The best place to go from here would be to ask the reference desk or Wikiproject Law if reliable sources verify this. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 10:01, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not OR to check that the words we use accurately reflect their definitions. News media are not expert sources for law, they are merely sources for what happened. If they use terms incorrectly, then we should fix it.

Technically, a jury returns a guilty verdict and a judge enters a conviction. The judge may however ignore the jury's verdict of guilt and not record a conviction or enter a conviction following a verdict of not guilty. Also, the conviction is not considered final until all appeals have run out. TFD (talk) 11:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

The Four Deuces I am possibly stretching the Smith and Jones example too far. I don't like relying on news sources, so I don't want to take too firm a stand. I hope voorts doesn't mind if I ping him in here. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 11:41, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

He was found guilty by a jury. In New York, a judgment of conviction is issued after sentencing. However, the distinction between being found guilty by a jury and a court issuing a judgment is so in the weeds that I don't think it matters which one we use. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:16, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Thankyou voorts. This addresses my main concern that we as non-subject matter experts were unaware of relevant facts. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:55, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I'd say it matters whether this article's lead says Trump is the first U.S. president convicted of a felony. A lot. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:10, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

voorts is a lawyer from New York, and is speaking from such a perspective as to whether the distinction is important. I imagine the alternative would be "found guilty by a jury of felony crimes" etc, do you see a significant loss from such a switch? Alternatively "convicted felon" would be used and the reference to primary sources would be footnoted. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 18:18, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

If reliable secondary sources say convicted, we should say the same. See WP:VNT. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:25, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

How do you think this applies the fifth example given in the #How can we tell section of WP:WSAW, also an essay? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:56, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's "obviously inaccurate" to say that Trump was "convicted" because colloquially, a jury finding someone guilty is referred to as a conviction. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:03, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense, thankyou for your input here. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:22, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm unconvinced it's wise to use a colloquialism for something that important. It's an encyclopedia. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:46, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I do not think the standard we are seeking here is being excusably inaccurate. If he was going to be sentenced and become a felon in the next few weeks, I would agree. But this is a detail that matters, Trump being the first Felon President would be historic. However because he will not be a felon until sentenced, and because sentencing has not been postponed until after he is president it is not clear that Trump will ever become a felon. Therefore it is actually a substantial error that we are saying this, as it is not true and is quite possibly never going to become true. Liger404 (talk) 08:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Sorry that is supposed to show that sentencing HAS being postponed. So the feloney status will not be applied for at least 4 years, if ever. Liger404 (talk) 08:29, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

It matter substantially because the sentencing is now delayed until at least after the Presidency and possibly indefinitely. This fundamentally changes an essential fact. Trump at this stage does not seem likely to ever actually become a felon, or at least not for 4 years. The distinction matters for this reason, because it fundamentally changes the feloney outcome. Liger404 (talk) 08:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I disagree, because even Wikipedia states only a judge can convict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdict#Criminal_law

"A verdict of guilty in a criminal case generally requires evidence to be tested and true beyond reasonable doubt and is normally followed by a judgment of conviction rendered by judge, which in turn be followed by sentencing."

It should be consistent. McDonaldsGuy (talk) 12:23, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The news source I attached is the Washington post. Surely that's reliable? But perhaps more importantly it's quoting a US law professor. I have the guys YouTube video on the matter if that helps? Surely expert legal opinion is the highest level of source? 115.189.93.186 (talk) 00:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Surely the New York post and a Yale law Professor are reputable sources? A mainstream newspaper and an Ivy league subject matter expert. https://nypost.com/2024/06/08/us-news/yale-law-professor-says-trump-isnt-a-convicted-felon-despite-guilty-verdict-heres-why/ or if you want the actual Podcast, so the direct words of a Yale Constitutional law Professor, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u23t__ysVjU&ab_channel=ProfessorJedRubenfeld Liger404 (talk) 08:14, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The NY Post is not a reliable source - see WP:NYPOST for the reasons why and the multiple discussions surrounding that. One law professor is certainly a reliable source for their own opinion - but that does not mean that their opinion is to be treated as fact and reported in "wikivoice" (i.e. saying "Trump was convicted" or not). That source would be reliable to report that in the opinion of that professor, Trump is not a convicted felon at this time. But the plurality (if not majority) of reliable sources are reporting he has been convicted. It matters not what the "technical" definition of the word is - it matters how it's used in common English. In common English, the word "convicted" can either mean "final judgment has been passed" or "a jury has returned a verdict of guilty and there is no sign that it is going to be overturned".

That said, I think there's a simple solution here. Why do we not just change "convicted of a felony" to "found guilty of a felony (by a jury)" with the parenthetical not being necessary in my opinion but... -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 08:24, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes my same proposal was a change in language to "Has been found guilty", although perhaps is is worth saying "Has been found guilty in the ongoing case xyz" . Felon is common parlance means someone who lives with the legal restrictions of a felony. Travel,voting guns rights, jobs ect. Because Trump does not yet have felony status, and now with the sentencing indefinitely delayed until at least after the presidency, Trump will not have felony status, and may never. So he isn't a "felon" in the way you would use the word when say, selling him a gun, filling out a travel visa or a job application. I do also have a Hindustan Times report that sames the same, referencing the same professor basically. I see they are considered semi accurate on that list. https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/us-news/trump-not-a-convicted-felon-yet-yale-law-professor-trashes-hush-money-trial-verdict-crime-is-so-unclear-101717926723371.html Liger404 (talk) 08:39, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

The word "felon" is not currently anywhere in the article and is not currently an issue. If someone tried to add it, I would oppose simply because it's unnecessarily "labelly". ―Mandruss ☎ 09:06, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Well ok, but it says "convicted of a felony" which is incorrect. And its incorrect in a way that matters, because it's no longer clear that this will ever happen, and if it will happen seems certain to be years away. And I would say a reasonable person reading that line would interpret it as Trump now being a convicted felon. Thus the language is misleading in an important way about a historically significant event. Liger404 (talk) 09:13, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree with you, Liger. Shouldn't we err on the side of caution, rather than potentially libelling someone (even on a technicality)? Riposte97 (talk) 12:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree as well. I think a new thread should be started to propose change X to Y. This thread has derailed quite a bit Artem...^Talk 21:47, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I nominate you for that. ―Mandruss ☎ 22:27, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I will see if I can put something sufficient together Artem...^Talk 22:29, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Here's a sampling of RS on Trump's felony conviction: Atlantic, NBC NY, AP, BBC, NPR, NYT,, Austin-American Statesman, Brennan Center for Justice, PBS News, ABC News, PolitiFact. Judge Merchan gave Trump’s lawyers until COB December 2 to file their arguments for dismissal and the prosecution a week to respond. Citing Trump's favorite answer: We'll see what happens. The Yale law professor's opinion is just that, one man's opinion cited by two unreliable sources, Fox News and NY Post. Our article doesn't call Trump a felon, and the conviction hasn't hurt him at the polls or kept him from profiting through persecution-themed merchandise. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 19:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Again, Trump has been found guilty by a jury in certain cases, but he has not yet been formally convicted because the judge has not entered a conviction by imposing a sentence. Conviction only occurs after sentencing, and in some cases, there may be additional legal proceedings (like appeals) before that happens. This, is not an opinion but a matter of legal fact that conviction has not occured, and cannot occur until the prerequisites are satisfied. Artem...^Talk 21:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

order of sentences on lead

I tried to change the order of sentences on lead, following the logic that would describe his first presidency and comments on third paragraph, and putting informations related to officials trials and such on fourth. There is no perfect "chronological" order either way, and that felt smoother to me, and it avoids mixing together two different kind of facts that are taking different paths (journalistic commentary or judicial system).

@Farkle Griffen why do you feel that the other formulation is better? For other editors, this is the diff: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Donald_Trump&diff=1258711727&oldid=1258705669 Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:06, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

description of his political approach on lead

For a few weeks we have been discussing in multiple sections on talk the need to have something that would relate to Trump rise to power. Some editors agreed, some didn't. For me this seems mandatory, since Trump winning the first election is the most notable event of his life and it needs proper context. In my opinion Goszei additions to the second paragraph manage to make that description clear and concise. Editor @Nikkimaria reverted them with explanation "overdetail". I disagree, there is a missing flow in the lead that is filled in by these additions, they are also not overdetailed and the second paragraph has space for them.

Goszei edit:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which gave rise to Trumpism, a political movement characterized by right-wing populism, "America First" nationalism, and economic protectionism.

the reversion by Nikkimaria:

In 2015, Trump launched a presidential campaign which led to the Trumpism movement.

Also another detail that said "and focused on luxury accommodation" was removed. It helps to define what Trump was known for. Before that the lead went in even more detail with the kind of properties Trump invested in. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:17, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

I had not noticed that there was already an ongoing discussion for this. Please refer to that one! Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:28, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Watering down of criticism

Re; this reversion of my edits. Hi ValarianB, I explained my edits as aligning the text with the sources. If you would like to reinstate the previous version, ensure the text better aligns with the sources. For context, I changed a sentence from:

His embrace of far-right extremism and harsher rhetoric against his political enemies have been described by historians and scholars as populist, authoritarian, fascist

→ His harsher rhetoric against his political enemies has been described by some historians and scholars as authoritarian, fascist.

I also removed several sources for not verifying this information and the descriptor of embracing far-right extremism. I did this per my readthrough of the sources, seeing if they were verifying the text, seen below.

Extended content

Populist Fascist Authoritarian https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/27/magazine/trump-rallies-rhetoric.html Yes: NYTvoice Debated, some changed their mind as of 2021 https://www.vox.com/2023/11/14/23958866/trump-vermin-authoritarian-democracy Debated in 2021, Voxvoice yes https://www.axios.com/2023/11/13/trump-vermin-fascist-language-speech Some historians describing rhetoric 2024 https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/trumps-fascistic-rhetoric-only-emphasizes-the-stakes-in-2024 NewYorkerVoice NewYorkerVoice https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/11/donald-trump-authoritarian-second-term VanityFairVoice VanityFairVoice https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/07/trump-second-term-isolationist-fascism/674791/ SME scholar "Variety of academics" SME: Could be a fascist in 2nd term based on promises SME scholar https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-compares-political-opponents-vermin-root-alarming-historians/story?id=104847748 Ambiguous: some historians or historians generally https://www.politico.com/news/2024/10/12/trump-racist-rhetoric-immigrants-00183537 Some experts Some experts "Nazi ideology" https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/10/trump-authoritarian-rhetoric-hitler-mussolini/680296/ SME historian https://www.axios.com/2024/10/11/mark-milley-trump-fascist-bob-woodward-book https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/10/12/mark-milley-donald-trump-fascist/ https://www.thebulwark.com/p/mattis-told-woodward-he-agreed-trump https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/22/politics/trump-fascist-john-kelly/index.html

As seen, only four sources are discussing the attitudes of historians and scholars as classes re; 2024 conduct. I clarified that this was held by "some" scholars and historians; none of the sources made a stronger claim except ambiguously the ABC News piece on historians views of fascism; the rest all qualified with "some". Many sources didn't discuss historians or historians at all. Those four sources actually discussing attitudes among historians and scholars were retained. Two sources mentioned populism, both subject matter experts, although only one in the context of Trump's 2024 rhetoric and neither commented on beliefs among historians and scholars as a class. Populism as a descriptor was removed, it is already mentioned in a more relevant place earlier: Trump's political positions and rhetoric were described as right-wing populist.

Only one source supported the descriptor "embraced far-right extremism", and it was entirely sourced to the analysis of a non-subject-matter-expert journalist; insufficient for an extraordinary claim. Citing academic consensus to news pieces is already insufficient but is retained until further reading can be performed. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:35, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rollinginhisgrave: I agree with you. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:07, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Restored. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Overdetail

@Nikkimaria, you removed this edit claiming overdetail. I disagree and think it adds much needed information to the page and is well-sourced. I copied over three sentences from the rhetoric page I thought would enhance the main page, but left the vast majority of information out, as I myself do not want to overdetail the main page. The content was copied within the relevant section. BootsED (talk) 02:53, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

There is already considerable discussion of rhetoric and related concepts incorporated into the rest of the article, including the claim that he is populist/nationalist, use of demeaning and derogatory language, and his rejection of the 2020 election results. If you wanted to reorganize the existing content to move it into the rhetoric section, I would have no objection, but I don't think we need to add new content there. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

My added content did not mention his rejection of the 2020 election results. I think you are referring to the mention of the "big lie" which in this case refers to the propaganda technique, which is why it is in the rhetoric section. The "big lie" mentioned elsewhere refers to the lie of a stolen election itself. You are correct that it is mentioned he is populist/nationalist elsewhere, but not including a mention of this in the section called "political practice" seems like an oversight.

The one sentence in question I added was: Research has identified Trump's rhetoric as heavily using vitriol, demeaning language, false equivalency, exclusion, and nativist fearmongering about immigrants, crime, and minorities as essential to his support. The section you removed afterwards was not added by me but already in the article for a while now, and was: "Trump uses rhetoric that political scientists have deemed to be both dehumanizing and connected to physical violence by his followers." Some research suggests Trump's rhetoric caused an increased incidence of hate crimes. During his 2016 campaign, he urged or praised physical attacks against protesters or reporters. Numerous defendants investigated or prosecuted for violent acts and hate crimes, including participants of the January 6, 2021, storming of the U.S. Capitol, cited Trump's rhetoric in arguing that they were not culpable or should receive leniency. A nationwide review by ABC News in May 2020 identified at least 54 criminal cases from August 2015 to April 2020 in which Trump was invoked in direct connection with violence or threats of violence mostly by white men and primarily against minorities.

Going back in the page's edit history I see that the section you removed has been in the page for years titled "Incitement of violence" since at least 2022 (didn't want to scroll back further).

I believe that the high-quality sources which were added also warrant the source's inclusion. Claims over fearmongering, for instance, are not mentioned elsewhere but backed up with the research articles provided in this addition. So there is a lot of new material not mentioned elsewhere in the article as well.

Sources

BootsED (talk) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC) BootsED (talk) 03:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Slight clarification, when I say you removed the section I mean you removed the section as a standalone as it has been since at least 2022 and put it under "rhetoric". I believe it needs to remain as a standalone subsection as it has been for years. Not sure if that was clear from my prior comment. BootsED (talk) 03:37, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should be in this article. I would be fine with moving content from elsewhere in the article into the Political practice section if you feel that is a better organizational approach. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:48, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I also agree that discussion of specific propaganda techniques should not be in this article. The addition was just a sentence that mentioned that he uses the big lie and firehose of falsehood in the Truthfulness section. No further discussion of those two techniques are included on this page.

I don't see why mentioning Trump's populism/nationalism can't be mentioned in the Political practice section as well as where it is in the other sections of the page now. A quick search reveals it is only mentioned in the election of 2016 section, one section in his first presidency, and once in the election of 2024 section. If someone wants to go to the Political practice section to learn about Trump's politics, it makes sense for at least a mention of populism/nationalism to be there. Again, I agree we should not be going into great detail here, but I think just mentioning it would be due. This is what my edit does. BootsED (talk) 05:35, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

If it's already mentioned three separate times, we don't need to mention it a fourth - we need to cut down the existing mentions. Consolidating to the Political practice section would be a good way to accomplish that; adding without consolidating would be the wrong way to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

I would be in favor of that proposal, but I am afraid it breaks up the "history" section of the article. If anything, parts of the "Election of 2016" Rhetoric and political positions section should be moved to the political practice section. I would be willing to work on this if you think this is the way to go. I don't want to break any preexisting consensus here BootsED (talk) 20:28, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I went ahead and consolidated the sections as you recommended. I am looking at it and I agree, I think it looks much better now. BootsED (talk) 21:05, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

BootsED, nice to meet you. Apologies in advance if I am mistaken. I was dumbfounded to see that you added 12000+ bytes and a whole lot of cites today. Was that really necessary? Sorry I'm relatively new at Donald Trump but can see much concern about this article being too long. I would feel like I was letting everybody down if I tried to do that. Please don't take offense, I would just like to know what's going on. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:19, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Susan, the edit in question re-added an edit that was under discussion. Some mentions of right-wing populism were merged into the political practice section, where some of the information that was already on the page in various places was placed. The bites included lots of citations, which should be viewed separately from word count. BootsED (talk) 23:21, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, BootsED, that explains it, good. Can you possibly use one or two good sources instead of five for one sentence? I have Jennifer Mercieca's book Demagogue for President: The Rhetorical Genius of Donald Trump if you need some help. -SusanLesch (talk) 23:38, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Hi Susan, ideally no more than six sources should be used. The sources are placed within an efn template to avoid cluttering the page. If you'd like to add your source to the page with a short quotation you are more than free to. I am hesitant to remove sources as many of the sentences deal with contentious material that people will attempt to remove claiming that "two sources isn't enough to say this" or something of that nature. This is why for such claims, I prefer to include as many high-quality sources as possible. BootsED (talk) 23:58, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Clarification, I see you are referring to the media section edit. The two sources up top are directly related to the prior sentence section, and the remaining three are used as the direct sentence preceding it makes claims that are made within those three sources. There are only five sources used, in total, but they are split up to avoid having too many at the end. Other sentences on this page do a similar thing with a similar amount of sources. BootsED (talk) 00:02, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

BootsED, we all need to do our part so this article won't break. True perhaps that a lot of content seems to be stuck around 2016-2020. But where on Earth do you get the idea that ideally no more than six sources should be used? For one sentence??!*%?#!!??? Think about it. This article was ready to break before Mr. Trump's first term. Can you imagine the number of people who would like to add their bit? I encourage you to help with §PEIS revisited, yet again instead of using the available citation space for what you'd like to say (that is, roughly, 10 citations out of 37 available to everyone). And no, thank you, I don't want to add my source; my priority is consolidating and cutting. -SusanLesch (talk) 15:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

BootsED, what I proposed was consolidating the existing content, not re-adding the edit that was under discussion. Given that, and given that it's a violation of the 24-hr BRD, that needs reverting ASAP please. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:08, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your clarification. With that said, I believe this content should be added to the page, as it expands upon the information presented within that section and uses much higher-quality sources than the existing content within that section. BootsED (talk) 00:22, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting. If you believe the existing content is poorly sourced, that's something that should be addressed separately from the question of adding more content. On the latter, the point of summary style is that the expanding should be accomplished in the subarticles - as above, that seems the better place for elaborating what specific propaganda techniques and rhetorical patterns are employed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification. With that said, I disagree that the content should not be re-added to the page, as it adds summary-level detail to the page on topics not covered in the article itself. The content added is a summary-level detail, and it does not go into further specifics left to other pages. In regards to the propaganda techniques section, it merely mentions the techniques, it does not describe or go over them in detail. That detail is left for the more appropriate page, as you yourself mentioned. BootsED (talk) 00:50, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I think what the section needs, rather than simple additions, is a more careful rewriting of the existing content to be a more coherent summary of the subarticles. The current section, and the proposed additions, read as strings of claims. Do you feel the current lead of Rhetoric of Donald Trump is an appropriate summary of that article's contents? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:11, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it is okay, but could be more concise.

In regards to this page, I've noticed a lot of content seems to be stuck around 2016-2020 with not a lot of updated sources used. I'm still unsure why the page says things like Trump is described as a right-wing populist. I think that since a lot of those sources and sections were written we have enough sources to say that he is a right-wing populist and such.

This is part of the work that needs to be done to make the page more updated. With his second presidency coming up my understanding is that a lot of descriptions over his fearmongering, falsehoods, populism, and "political practice and rhetoric" need to be made more "universal" in summarizing his campaigns and presidency, and move away from providing specific instances and sources that only describe his 2016 campaign and first presidency. This is why I sought to have my additions use better peer-reviewed journal articles more specific to the man and less about specific incidents. BootsED (talk) 05:55, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I think I get what you're saying. So I believe that my three sentences I added to the political practice and rhetoric adequately summarize the content of the Rhetoric of Donald Trump page. The lead summarizes it but in my opinion does it in a superfluous manner. This is why I believe my edits are due and provide a summary-level overview of this topic in a condensed form. BootsED (talk) 22:20, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I was told by another respected editor of the six citation limit. Other sentences on this page use similar amounts of citations, not just mine, so please don't make me out to be the villain here. I have explained before that my additions improve the page and could potentially allow for other lower-quality citations and sentences to be removed. I am actively working to improve this page, and if you actually have any constructive feedback on my proposed additions rather than waving them away by saying you don't like them because they have too many citations I would appreciate the feedback.

Frankly, this page needs a lot of updating and if any updates are immediately removed because people say it's too long this page with athropy into irrelevance. There is also, of course, the risk that people will use "length" concerns to remove material that they personally don't like, so I think this page and its editors need to get real here and start making progress on this front to head off these concerns.

I have started this work, proposed some high-quality additions with multiple peer-reviewed journal articles to possibly replace some lower-quality sources and sentences to better provide a summary on this topic. I encourage others to do the same. BootsED (talk) 20:46, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

There's no need to spin logical fallacies (the bandwagon fallacy and the argument from authority). I have nothing against you or what you wish to add to this article. We just happen to be faced with limits and arguing won't convince you, sorry to say. -SusanLesch (talk) 22:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

While I agree that updating is warranted, making the page unreadable or even unloadable is also a concern; it needs to be a high-level summary, and additions need to be much more judiciously made in concert with removals. I have used some of your proposed content to update the section along those lines. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:58, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I appreciate your edit and thank you for your patience. I hope I didn't come off too harshly during our discussions. I also think that some potential parts of the page that could be condensed further is in the foreign policy section by merging some of the content about his policy with various countries to a more high-level overview. BootsED (talk) 02:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

"facilitating the January 6 United States Capitol attack"

Right now the lead states that Trump facilitated the Jan 6 attack. He has never been convicted of such an act and the lead doesn't give a source. Just seems to be an opinion. Trump has not been convicted of any such crimes in relation to Jan 6. Liger404 (talk) 09:17, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Just for starters, you may have noticed that the lead doesn't give any sources. Related citations are in the supporting body content. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:25, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

well the Stormy Daniels comment does have a link. But regardless, this claim doesn't re appear in the body and so ultimately remains an unsupported opinion/false accusation. Trump has never been found guilty of any such offence. Liger404 (talk) 22:57, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

An encyclopedia is not a court of law, and the substance of our articles are not dependent on judicial verdicts. The statement in the lede is supported by the info found in Donald_Trump#January_6_Capitol_attack. Zaathras (talk) 14:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this issue and the sourcing closely, but per WP:CRIME: A living person accused of a crime is presumed not guilty unless and until the contrary is decided by a court of law. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 22:36, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

This comes under MOS:WEASEL: "words and phrases aimed at creating an impression that something specific and meaningful has been said, when in fact only a vague or ambiguous claim has been communicated." "To facilitate" means to make something easier. The Capitol police for example facilitated the riot by having ony 500 police present. Congress facilitated the riot by not declaring Trump elected. Of course neutral editors would not put that into their articles without explanation. We should just explain how Trump made the riot easier without using big words many readers may not understand. TFD (talk) 22:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Misogyny and cabinet appointments

A misogynist is a person who hates or discriminates against women.[53]

In this article there is the section Misogyny and allegations of sexual misconduct.

Here are some of the positions where Trump has appointed women to cabinet positions in his next administration so far: Attorney general, Secretary of Homeland Security, Secretary of Labor, Director of National Intelligence, United Nations Ambassador, Secretary of Education, Surgeon General.[54]

I don't know of any sources so far that reconcile the characterization of Trump as a misogynist and his cabinet appointments of women, and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources so that the article can be appropriately edited. Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 17:43, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Bob, this is a "I have black friends so I can't be racist!" fallacy, as women can be misogynist too. It is not a prejudice exclusive to men. But even beyond that, the president-elect nominating women to his administration does not counterbalance his past words and deeds that numerous reliable sources have characterized as misogynist. I don't know of any sources...and suggest we be on the lookout for such sources suggests that you have already formed a personal opinion about content to add to a BLP, and hope it can someday be validated. That is literally a textbook example of confirmation bias . Zaathras (talk) 18:11, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

This being said there is an issue in misogyny being in wikivoice while every other prejudice/label is attributed. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 20:56, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, this does just seem like opinion not fact. This isn't supposed to be gossip. Certainly some think he is sexist. But some think he isn't and Wikipedia isn't really supposed to be elevating particular opinions over others. The allegations/liability in sexual misconduct is fact, that bit is solid. Liger404 (talk) 23:01, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPOV. Wikipedia content policy is complicated, nuanced, and not always intuitive. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but that you're exhibiting very little understanding of policy. For starters, what "some think" is irrelevant. A prime example: "Some think" the 2020 election was stolen. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Zaathras, There appears to be an inconsistency that you may be able to explain: How can someone who supposedly hates or discriminates against women, appoint women to the above mentioned cabinet positions? Thanks. Bob K31416 (talk) 10:19, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Well if we are going to use OR, someone has to make the tea. Slatersteven (talk) 11:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Actions

Not living in the US, I'm not very knowledgeable about American politics, so it seems fair to ask users to list below all the racist, misogynist, etc. ACTIONS that Trump has committed (I see many controversial phrases said by him, but not racist, misogynistic, etc. actions); in reply to [55]. JacktheBrown (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Obviously, no response... JacktheBrown (talk) 09:54, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

1973: The US Department of Justice — under the Nixon administration, out of all administrations — sued the Trump Management Corporation for violating the Fair Housing Act. As action

1992: The Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino had to pay a $200,000 fine because it transferred Black and women dealers off tables to accommodate a big-time gambler’s prejudices, an action.

He has also been found guilty of sexual assault, an action.

All of those are action. Slatersteven (talk) 10:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Is he "convicted"?

Trump has been found guilty by a jury in certain cases, but he has not yet been formally convicted because the judge has not entered a conviction by imposing a sentence. Conviction only occurs after sentencing, and in some cases, there may be additional legal proceedings (like appeals) before that happens. This, is not an opinion but a matter of legal fact that conviction has not occurred, and cannot occur until the prerequisites are satisfied. On top of the following, I suggest we be cautious with the WP:RS we use for this topic for the sake of accuracy. Wikipedia does not have concrete rules, but rather has guidelines, therefore I suggest we don't just use any RS just for the sake of the argument as this is not something that can just be disputed, in a legal sense, it is simply how it is - my point here is that a news outlet, no matter how reliable should not be relied upon if they are incorrect on this topic, because the facts are that:

As of now, Trump is best categorized as someone who has been charged with crimes and in some cases, found liable in civil suits, but who has not yet been convicted in a criminal case, pending sentencing or appeal.

I will attempt to provide a sufficient breakdown for any editor's understanding for comment in regards to how the legal system categorizes someone like Trump at different stages of legal proceedings:

1. Charged with a crime: This is when criminal charges are brought against someone, but they have not yet been tried in court.

• In this case, Trump was charged with multiple criminal offenses, such as in the New York state case involving alleged hush money payments or the federal case related to classified documents.

2. Indicted (but not convicted): This is when a grand jury formally accuses someone of a crime, but the case has not yet gone to trial or resulted in a verdict.

• Trump was indicted in a number of cases, however, none of the criminal charges have been formally concluded in a conviction.

3. Guilty verdict (but not convicted): A jury may find someone guilty, but the conviction itself only happens after sentencing by the judge.

• In the case of the civil fraud trial in New York, Trump was found liable for fraud, but that’s not the same as being convicted of a crime. Civil liability typically results in monetary damages, not criminal punishment.

4. Conviction: This is the legal categorization that applies once a person has been formally convicted in a criminal case—after a trial (or plea) and a sentencing.

• Trump has not yet been convicted in a criminal case; he may face criminal convictions in the future depending on the outcomes of ongoing trials, sentencing, or appeals.

To conclude, legally speaking, Trump would currently be categorized as someone who has been charged with crimes and in some cases found liable (e.g., civil fraud), but has not yet been convicted in the criminal sense because formal sentencing has not taken place. If he is found guilty in criminal trials, then his legal status could change, but only after a conviction is entered.

To sum it up: He is not a convicted felon at this stage. He is facing various legal battles, and some may lead to convictions depending on the results of the trials and appeals processes. I therefore propose the following potential changes to discuss:

• Change from making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony. to something of the following nature:
  • ... making hime the first president in U.S. history who has been found liable for xyz...
  • ...making him the first president in U.S. history who has been charged of xyz...
    • IF either of these are true ofcourse - I am not familiar if there have been other U.S. presidents who have been found liable or charged as above

Artem...^Talk 22:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you lay out the sourcing here you think best supports this change? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:07, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

The process:

_

Indicted (but Not Convicted)

• 5th Amendment: No one can be tried for a capital or infamous crime without indictment by a grand jury.
• Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure (Rule 7): Governs the process by which a grand jury issues an indictment in federal cases, or a prosecutor files an information in a misdemeanor case. In Trump's case, multiple indictments were issued after grand jury proceedings.

Guilty Verdict (but Not Convicted)

• In civil cases like the New York fraud case, liability is determined by the preponderance of evidence (not "beyond a reasonable doubt"). New York State Civil Practice Law and Rules (CPLR) would apply which outline procedures for civil suits and the determination of liability.
• Criminal Verdict: If Trump were to be found guilty in a criminal trial, a conviction would follow. The Federal Sentencing Guidelines or state sentencing laws would then apply, depending on the jurisdiction.

Conviction

• The Sentencing Reform Act (18 U.S.C. § 3551 et seq.) governs the sentencing of federal offenders.
• U.S. Code Title 18: Outlines the definition of crimes, their penalties, and the process of conviction.

Artem...^Talk 23:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Artem P75 Thanks for listing these out, unfortunately they do not verify for Wikipedia's purposes what you are proposing. They require analysis which can only be done by reliable secondary sources. If you think what I'm saying isn't true, it's best to take this to the reliable sources noticeboard to receive input. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand, I will try and find secondary RS to support Artem...^Talk 23:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

NY hush-money case: again, the article doesn't label Trump a convicted felon. This is what the ABA white paper cited in the earlier discussion says in the sentencing section: If the defendant is convicted in a criminal case, the judge will set a date for sentencing. So we're not wrong for saying he was convicted of a felony (plus all those RS and WP relying on RS ...) Civil cases: the article says that Trump was found liable. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 23:21, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

From the lede: "making him the first U.S. president to be convicted of a felony" Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:23, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, according to RS (I cited several in the closed discussion) and the ABA. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 23:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Could you clarify what you mean by "the article doesn't label Trump as a convicted felon"? Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 23:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Where do we say that "Trump is a convicted felon" ("convicted" would be redundant anyway)? "Felon" is a label, "convicted of a felony" by a jury of his peers is the description of what happened. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 00:36, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Editors who insist that the two are interchangeable are pushing a POV in my opinion. Words matter. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:40, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The issue here is not with it being a label, but referring to him as "convicted" (see the title of this thread). For the purposes of such a point, "convicted of a felony" and "convicted felon" are indeed interchangeable, even if the purposes of MOS:LABEL they are not. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 00:55, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Just saying the word "felon" would be better left out of this discussion. It wasn't. ―Mandruss ☎ 01:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:28, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the word "felon" is at issue here. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:31, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

To sum it up: He is not a convicted felon at this stage implies that we're saying it. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 23:40, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I mistit. Thanks for clarifying. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:49, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

As a stop-gap measure, in accordance with WP:BLP and WP:LBL, I am changing all references to 'convicted' to 'found guilty' until a clear consensus is reached. Riposte97 (talk) 01:42, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Riposte97 I will ask you don't do that, as it doesn't align with the policies you linked and is likely to raise the temperature of this discussion. Material may be removed from biographies of living people under WP:BLPREMOVE: relevant in this case when "unsourced or poorly sourced". The sources used to verify that he is convicted are of sufficient quality. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 01:48, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, but WP:LIBEL is pretty clear that a cautious approach should be taken. Saying someone was convicted when in fact there has only been a finding of guilt is potentially libellous, because it may be taken to mean that the crimes were serious enough to warrant a conviction. In many (most?) common law jurisdictions, most low-level findings of guilt are discharged without conviction. That's all. I’m not saying he will or won't eventually be convicted, but we need to err on the side of caution. Riposte97 (talk) 01:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Nor, for that matter, am I saying that consensus here won't actually opt for inclusion. However, in case we do decide that we shouldn't include the disputed term, then it's imo prudent to remove it now. Riposte97 (talk) 01:57, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:LIBEL does not say we should err on the side of caution. It does emphasise, within the first sentence, that our priority is verifiability; this material is sufficiently verified. If you think I'm misreading the policy, it'd be better to ask in a more centralized location for clarification such as Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. It's possible I’m mistaken, but I’m relying on the second sentence - 'It is the responsibility of all contributors to ensure that the material posted on Wikipedia is not defamatory.' Maybe this does need a noticeboard post. I’m slightly constrained as I’m on my phone at the moment, but will have access to a computer later today. Riposte97 (talk) 02:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the second sentence is unfortunately somewhat ambiguous. It can be read as expanding the first sentence (i.e. defamation for Wikipedia's purposes is that which falls short of verifiability) or purely referring to the legal concept (which necessarily contradicts WP:No original research).

It is better for us to assume it is consistent with policies, hence the first read should be used.

That's my understanding anyway, if you think it's compelling or likely you can self-revert, if you disagree you can go to the noticeboard, although I would appreciate it if you explained where you think my reasoning falls short in the meantime. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:16, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

As I said above, articles by reporters are reliable sources for news, but they are not legal experts. Interestingly, in the UK and Canada, people who are found guilty of offenses may be "discharged" without recording a conviction. While it's a differemt system, it shows that the two terms are not synonymous. TFD (talk) 02:05, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

We are not legal experts either. Until someone provides law journals discussing this, news outlets reporting this are the best sources at hand for verifiability and are accepted on Wikipedia as sufficiently reliable for sourcing claims of conviction. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Section 1.20(13) of the New York Criminal Procedure Law, which contains definitions, provides: "Conviction" means the entry of a plea of guilty to, or a verdict of guilty upon, an accusatory instrument other than a felony complaint, or to one or more counts of such instrument. Here, a jury verdict of guilty was rendered on the counts of the New York indictment against Mr. Trump, and it is therefore proper to state that he was "convicted" of those counts. It is, of course, also true that a motion to set aside the convictions is pending and that no sentence has yet been imposed or judgment rendered. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:14, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, that is persuasive. Riposte97 (talk) 02:20, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Persuasive enough to self-revert?

I think this leaves the question of whether the conviction should be characterized as a historical first at this juncture in the legal process. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

If this is in reference to the matter of fraud, that is a civil case, not a criminal case. Civil liability does not equate to a criminal conviction. Being found liable for fraud in a civil case does not carry the same consequences as being convicted of a crime; civil fraud ruling would not result in jail time or criminal penalties like those in a criminal case. Section 1.20(13) of the New York Criminal Procedure Law would therefore not apply to the fraud civil case because that section specifically defines "conviction" in the context of criminal proceedings, not civil cases. Artem...^Talk 02:37, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Prosecution of Donald Trump in New York is a criminal case. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 02:43, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The language Brad quoted includes the words "plea" and "guilty", which do not apply in civil cases. So it must be referring to criminal. ―Mandruss ☎ 02:46, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I see that, I was asking because from my knowledge, he has only officially been found guilty in the fraud case? I have not been 100% up to date with his multitude of court cases - if I am wrong here please let me know Artem...^Talk 02:49, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

We are discussing here the criminal case that was tried before Justice Merchan, not the civil case that was tried before Justice Engoron. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Convicted on 34 counts of falsifying business records. All felonies (i.e., criminal). ―Mandruss ☎ 02:54, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I see, I have just looked over a few articles on this case - please disregard my previous comment Artem...^Talk 03:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Happy to do so. :)

I think this leaves the question of whether the conviction should be characterized as a historical first at this juncture in the legal process. ―Mandruss ☎ 03:10, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I would personally think so - being the first ever actually convicted felon president in the 200+ year history in my eyes would certainly be historical Artem...^Talk 03:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Brad: It is, of course, also true that a motion to set aside the convictions is pending [...] - If said motion were granted, would it still be a historical first? If not, aren't we premature to assert one? ―Mandruss ☎ 03:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Well if the motion were granted I would think not as it would no longer be the case that he is the first convicted felon to hold office. So in this case I would probably agree that we may be premature here, especially if sentencing has been postponed Artem...^Talk 03:51, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

We just report what reliable sources are saying per Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 04:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Alright. Show of hands, who's ready to close as resolved? ―Mandruss ☎ 04:25, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

• close

Artem...^Talk 04:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

This is likely to keep coming up. I'm not inclined to create a consensus item with so little participation, but editors might want to commit this section heading to memory so it can be easily found in the archive. ―Mandruss ☎ 05:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Close, both threads appearing to have been based on OP's misinterpretations. If said motion were granted, would it still be a historical first? Um — yeah? Not a legal question, I would think, but WP:PUBLICFIGURE. All of it, conviction, motion being granted for whatever reason (Trump's current argument for dismissal appears to be that sentencing would threaten government stability). Judge Merchan gave Trump’s lawyers until COB December 2 to file their arguments for dismissal and the prosecution a week to respond. Again citing Trump's favorite phrase: We'll see what happens. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 17:04, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

It's late here, but if there's still an open question, I'll comment in the morning, if closing this can wait until then. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:31, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Following up on this, I think we have consensus that we can report that Mr. Trump is the first former President to have been convicted of felonies. If the conviction were to be set aside in the future, whether by the trial judge or on an appeal, that would mean the conviction was later adjudged to be invalid, and we would certain include that, but it wouldn't negate the fact that he was regarded as convicted at the time of the jury verdict. For examples of how Wikipedia has dealt with this type of situation in the past, see for example Bill Cosby or Jussie Smollett. Perhaps the wording would be something such as "Trump was the first former president to be convicted of felonies, but the convictions were subsequently overturned" or something similar, depending on just what exactly happens. That is probably as far as we can take the discussion at this stage. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The Truth

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

If anyone wants to know the truth read these [[56]], [[57]], [[58]]. I have found so many truths on this page [[59]] which is much more accurate and reliable than this [[60]]. Do not be fooled. This is left-wing communist propaganda [[61]], and this is the accurate and reliable source [[62]]. 2600:1700:36D0:9B0:B878:7B7B:BAC0:B79A (talk) 05:08, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lead to body links

Are we doing lead to body refs now? Not that I'm opposed, been supporting them for years but was told that we couldn't use cross-refs that look like links to other articles because reader confusion or something. Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 18:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

"In 2015 he launched a a presidential campaign" in the lead

The following sentence was added recently:

In 2015, he launched a presidential campaign that led to the Trumpism movement.

Challenged here, new version:

In 2015, he launched a presidential campaign that led to the Trumpism movement, and subsequently won the 2016 presidential election.

Partially reverted here, splitting up the sentence and moving the second clause into the next paragraph:

In 2015, he launched a presidential campaign that led to the Trumpism movement.
Trump won the 2016 presidential election.

My edit based on body text, moved into the fourth paragraph which describes some of the rhetoric:

Beginning with his 2016 presidential campaign, Trump's politics and rhetoric led to the creation of Trumpism.

Partially reverted here, leaving the above-cited sentence which IMO isn't leadworthy. Comments? Space4Time3Continuum2x🖖 20:24, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

It will be helpful if you clarify why you don't think content is "leadworthy" so editors can evaluate your reasons. Not intending to put burden on you. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 21:35, 25 November 2024 (UTC)