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Requested move 21 January 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 12:55, 10 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

National Democratic Party of Germany → The Homeland (Germany) – The party has rebranded Karma1998 (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 20:26, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment It does not matter what the party calls itself, WP:COMMONNAME applies. Do we have any data/indicators that shows The Homeland/Die Heimat is currently more used than NPD/NDP? I do not think we should change the article title solely because some fascists realized they created a political brand so unbelievably toxic that the only path forward was to rebrand ([1]). Curbon7 (talk) 01:00, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    From a GNews search for "Die Heimat" with a date range of July 2023 to January 2024, I found a significant number of sources that only refer to Die Heimat in relation to the NPD. For example, Der Spiegel writes the NPD, which recently renamed itself Die Heimat and NPD/Die Heimat, while the Federal Constitutional Court also uses NPD/Die Heimat. Curbon7 (talk) 01:07, 22 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I would say it's appropriate to change the articles name to The Homeland(Germany), even the German article of the political party has updated it to its factual name. Updating the name of the party would also make it easier to edit articles because you don't have to choose between "The Homeland" and "NPD". I don't think not changing the name because of a personnel opinion that somehow fascists thought that the old brand of the party was toxic... They are neo-Nazis, there political brand is going to be toxic no mater what. I don't think a name change is going to change the fact that they are toxic imbeciles. Updating the name would be a factual change. Zyxrq (talk) 18:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • No renaming and especially no translation into "Die Heimat". Agree with Curbon7. As of today, Die Heimat is still referred to as "the former NPD" in tagesschau, German news articles or by the Bundesverfassungsgericht. The party is not known as "The Homeland". NYT today only mentioned "Die Heimat, which means the Homeland...". Cannot follow reasoning of ease of editing by Zyxrq.--Wuerzele (talk) 10:45, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per above. Certainly do not translate. No evidence so far that this is seen in its (pretty vague) English translation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:16, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is a list of three sources that refer to "Die Heimat" as The Homeland As a translation. The list includes Der Spiegel, The BBC and The New York Times. To say the party isn't known as the Homeland in anyway or the translation is somehow "vague" is relatively incorrect. [[2]][[3]] [[4]] Zyxrq (talk) 16:57, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, I can't see the NYT article, but the BBC and Der Spiegel both actually refer to it as Die Heimat with Homeland in brackets. As I said, it doesn't need translating. We don't slavishly translate foreign names into English for the sake of it. Even as a native English speaker, I've never understood the obsession among some editors with doing so and WP:UE doesn't mandate it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:08, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I do understand what your trying to say, but there aren't any real reasons not to rename the article to "The Homeland", besides some notion that somehow its not the correct English word for Die Heimat. Its the correct name and many sources say it as the translation. at this point if we don't rename the article were just keeping the name 'National Democratic Party of Germany' for the sake of it. If we do keep the name "National Democratic Party of Germany", it would be factually incorrect. if we change it to Die Heimat its correct, but it would make it more difficult for English speakers to find the Wikipedia article. If we change the article name to "The Homeland" its Factually correct and its easier to actually find the article. It also causes less confusion on what the name of the party actually is. Naturally If the name of the article changes you will see sources start referring to Die Heimat as just The homeland. This isn't about "slavishly translate foreign names into English for the sake of it", its about being factually correct in the article. We don't call the National Socialist German Workers' Party aka the Nazi party by its original name, The German Workers' Party or by its German translation "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei". So why should we be doing that with this Wikipedia article. Zyxrq (talk) 18:24, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Because we use WP:COMMONNAME in English-language sources. Is that The Homeland? Does anyone call it that? Not that I can see. They call it Die Heimat or by its old name. Putting its translation in brackets afterwards doesn't mean that's the common name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:24, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If that's the case shouldn't we change the name of the article to "Die Heimat", or something like "Die Heimat(NPD)". Zyxrq (talk) 18:59, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The latter, no. The former, that's what this debate is about. Has the name been commonly adopted yet? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:57, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This is another source from CNN referring to Die Heimat as The Homeland [[5]] Zyxrq (talk) 18:38, 28 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I think that the current status quo, having "The Homeland" as the first name in the lead sentence and at the top of the infobox despite the article's name remaining NPD is silly, (though I understand why.) Nevertheless, at least for now, it's hard to deny that NPD remains the WP:COMMONNAME. Furthermore, it's not the responsibility of Wikipedia to back up the rebranding efforts of neo-nazi parties. This being said, I would say that - either now or at a later date - it does probably make sense to rename the article "The Homeland (Germany)" or even "The Homeland (German Neo-Nazi party)". But it may not yet be time. Garnet Moss (talk) 08:26, 4 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 20 June 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There were several supports to move the article to its title in English as "The Homeland" or similar titles, though the supporters did not provide much evidence that the WP:COMMONAME had changed despite a new name having been chosen for the party, and some did not provide policy or guideline based arguments. Although there were more numerical supports than opposes (4 support and 3 opposed), the opposition provided sources that gave the indication that the new names for the party had weak acceptance and that the common name had not changed. (closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 22:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

National Democratic Party of Germany → Die Heimat (political party) – When a party changes its name, it seems more than natural to rename the page too. Current English-language sources on the party refer to it by its new original name, Die Heimat, which should therefore be the title of the page. It doesn't seem sensible to me to keep a name that has been abandoned for a year now. Scia Della Cometa (talk) 13:10, 20 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 18:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support but in english
National Democratic Party of Germany → The Homeland (Germany) Gooduserdude (talk) 19:09, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Still see no change from the previous RMs; the party – which has been receiving almost no news coverage anymore – still seems to be referred to in relation to its former name in an "X formerly known as Twitter" way, such as in [6] (the party youth organization of the former NPD, now Die Heimat, Like the NPD, which renamed itself Die Heimat in 2023) or [7]. Curbon7 (talk) 21:36, 23 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    No argument has been provided that the WP:COMMONNAME has changed, so I think helping a neo-Nazi organization's attempt to rebrand is a bad idea. An alternative is a split pre- and post-name change, but I don't really think that'd work. Curbon7 (talk) 21:24, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Still no evidence has been provided that the common name in English has changed, just a lot of vague hand-waving. Curbon7 (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also support but in English. As Scia Della Cometa said, we should use The Homeland (Germany). The fact that the article currently calls the party the "National Democratic Party of Germany" makes no sense and is clearly outdated, misleading and confusing to readers. Helper201 (talk) 17:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • support. I still stand by what I said the last time we had this discussion.
    we should change it to something like "The Homeland (German political party)" Zyxrq (talk) 17:44, 25 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also support but in English. It's about time especially now that there is a separate party in Germany registered as the "National Democratic Party of Germany". The common name in German has been widely adopted even to the point of the new colour being used, German Wikipedia changed it ages ago as well. The Homeland (Germany) seems like the best name for the article in my opinion. JonahF (talk) 11:49, 5 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose to "Die Heimat" per Curbon7, Strong oppose to English title ("The Homeland"). The first few news results in a web search show the party being called "former NPD", indicating weak acceptance of the new name and no change to the COMMONNAME despite a change to the OFFICIALNAME (which we don't care about when discussing article titles): [8][9][10][11][12]. Those same sources, especially the last two BBC articles, show that the English translation is merely explanatory and not the common name, so if we move to an updated title, it should be the German one. Toadspike [Talk] 15:51, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per discussion of six months ago. But if moved, certainly should not be moved to the English translation. No evidence at all that this is the common name. We don't translate foreign names for the sake of it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:09, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • neutral per WP:USEENGLISH, but prefer the current title for clarity. —usernamekiran (talk) 22:20, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

a note about "Heimat" for future discussions

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Please see Heimat for the word (~ 'home' or 'homeland' … there's "no exact English equivalent"), and Homeland#Land of one's home (…"narrower in scope than one's nation").
'Home' translated to German may refer to zu Hause, Heim, Heimstätte, Heimatstadt, Heimat …, and 'homeland' may refer to Heimatland, Vaterland (fatherland), Mutterland (motherland), Heimat …. Depending on speaker, context etc, each of these German words may have slightly different meanings. I hope you understand that Heimat is an expression "in between", and "more" as well. In this case, the political party actually refers to (or better: plays with) diverse meanings simultaneously, incl. the obvious nationalistic, but also regionalistic and even romantic ones. I would therefore strongly recommend to NOT translate "Die Heimat" into the rather one-dimensional "The Homeland". 2003:E5:3715:1B00:99CD:6034:56C2:2894 (talk) 02:04, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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